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Often wondered about this...Updated..
06-28-2011, 03:40 PM
Post: #31
RE: Often wondered about this...Updated..
I consider them to be true rc's also, only because they are a base card in a base set, even though they are inserted into packs of a different set's cards.

You have to have the same amount of refractors to make a complete set, that you have to have to make a complete set of the regular chrome, that makes refractors a stand alone set in my opinion.

But Beckett only recognizes them as inserts.

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06-28-2011, 03:52 PM
Post: #32
RE: Often wondered about this...Updated..
(06-28-2011 03:40 PM)shezdoni Wrote:  I consider them to be true rc's also, only because they are a base card in a base set, even though they are inserted into packs of a different set's cards.

You have to have the same amount of refractors to make a complete set, that you have to have to make a complete set of the regular chrome, that makes refractors a stand alone set in my opinion.

But Beckett only recognizes them as inserts.

I think I am with many members on here and consider a player's rookie year card a RC. I'm not much on politics and assigning titles. I love to collect and it is cool to have any 1st year card of a player.

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07-02-2011, 10:19 PM
Post: #33
RE: Often wondered about this...Updated..
(06-28-2011 03:52 PM)ripkenfan72 Wrote:  I think I am with many members on here and consider a player's rookie year card a RC. I'm not much on politics and assigning titles. I love to collect and it is cool to have any 1st year card of a player.

I've entered this thread late, but here are my two cents.

For those of us who collected back in the 90's or before, they will know this, the younger collectors may not be aware, so no attempt to patronise from this reply.

Until 1989, with the exception of 1961, there was one cardset a year, Topps. 1961 also had Fleer produce a set of NFL and the old AFL in one combined set. It was an era of no parallels, occasional inserts, but they were 1000yd runners or receivers, or pennants or stickers, they were different, not always treated seriously. So if a player was assigned a card, his first one was his RC, and as Topps printed the cards early, a player's RC was in a following year, 1983 draftees John Elway & Dan Marino have 1984 RC's, 1985 draftee Jerry Rice has a 1986 RC. No scrub low round draft picks, these were 1st picks who had productive rookie years, so they were given a RC the following year. Non productive rookies waited many years or fell out of the leaqgue without a card ever issued. Jets 1984 1st rd Ron Faurot, no rookie card, 1986 1st rd OG Mike Haight got a RC in 1991, Pacific. Now every 1st rounder, even the o linemen get several true RC's.

1989 brought the start of the card 'wars', Topps was joined by Score & Proset, so a rookie could have 3 RC's, and Score & Proset got RC's in their series 1 or 2, Topps responded with a Topps Traded set to release 1989 RC's.

From that point card companies realized the value of a RC the year the player was drafted, the demand was there. Parallels appeared in football in 1991, Wild Card stripes so stars and rookies had multiple cards, inserts appeared in 1992. A way to sell more cards of a rookie, the diehards considered the base card a RC, at best an insert or parallel a 1st year card, but never accepting it to be a true RC. Dealer prices reflected that distinction. It was one way to get people to buy more Dan Marino, John Elway, Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, shrink the base set down, create one or more insert sets, the insert craze caused a lot of money to be exchanged for those elusive chase inserts pre internet, a different era to today.

From that point it became more sophisticated, Pacific with different foil parallels depending on hobby or retail packs, eventually there were true RC cards with autos, and patches, by 2000 my SPx Jets collection had 1st rd pick rookies Chad Pennington, Laveranues Coles & Anthony Becht with autos and swatch in a base card. The demand meant people spent more money opening packs & boxes for a hand signed RC, there was no turning the clock back to simpler times, the money factor took over.

The rule bending of a RC or a true RC became worse, look at 2006 Bowman Sterling, my Jets collection has 1 RC numbered Anthony Schlegel, but Leon Washington & Kellen Clemens with lots of varieties, the patch RC, the patch and auto RC, then there is the parallel patch refractor, and the parallel patch auto refractor. So which is the real true RC for Clemens and Washington, the patch only card. All of those cards are not numbered, Beckett tries to decide, open a magazine and see Santonio Holmes SH1 Jsy is a RC, the SH2 Jsy auto is not, it's crazy, deliberately engineered to try and confuse.

Upper Deck produced cards with different diecuts in SPx, which is the true RC. It is made difficult to know, sometime these card variants have been numbered so which is which, they don't care, it's the collectors trying to make rules who care when buying from dealers, shows, secondary market, are we being sold a 1st year card or a true RC. When it can be a big difference in price, it matters to the buyer, especially if they want to flip it, they don't want to pay $100 for a $10 valued 1st year card..

And that has been the card companies plan, a pack opener finds a card, it's got gold lettering, it says AFC, it's numbered to 25, it must be a RC, maybe it is, is it a true RC, it depends if you care or not, the most common card has silver foil and is diecut NFL and numbered to 599.

Who cares, a good point, it's a first year card, but to sell it on the secondary market, a collector of that card ( it is Dustin Keller 2008) will want that #ed to 25 gold, but a true RC collector will ignore it. Nothing wrong with the card, but it may be one of 3 or 4 parallels produced to get player collectors to buy more instead of the old days one card. Produce inserts and parallel inserts and the player collector will chase more, a simple business plan designed to move more product, less unattractive players in sets so make the sets smaller but add more parallels, more buying of the potential hot rookie.

Samr deal with Bowman Chrome, or Topps Chrome, some people want the rainbow, all 1st year cards I consider them being old school, there is one true RC, and 6-8 parallel 1st year cards. Even if Topps prints RC on the front, it's a 1st year card so I won't pay big bucks for it.

All collectors will never agree on this, as times have moved on and everyones level of caring is different, and the card companies exploit that.

Happy collecting to one and all, collect what makes you happy
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07-03-2011, 08:59 AM
Post: #34
RE: Often wondered about this...Updated..
(07-02-2011 10:19 PM)ginge01 Wrote:  I've entered this thread late, but here are my two cents.

For those of us who collected back in the 90's or before, they will know this, the younger collectors may not be aware, so no attempt to patronise from this reply.

Until 1989, with the exception of 1961, there was one cardset a year, Topps. 1961 also had Fleer produce a set of NFL and the old AFL in one combined set. It was an era of no parallels, occasional inserts, but they were 1000yd runners or receivers, or pennants or stickers, they were different, not always treated seriously. So if a player was assigned a card, his first one was his RC, and as Topps printed the cards early, a player's RC was in a following year, 1983 draftees John Elway & Dan Marino have 1984 RC's, 1985 draftee Jerry Rice has a 1986 RC. No scrub low round draft picks, these were 1st picks who had productive rookie years, so they were given a RC the following year. Non productive rookies waited many years or fell out of the leaqgue without a card ever issued. Jets 1984 1st rd Ron Faurot, no rookie card, 1986 1st rd OG Mike Haight got a RC in 1991, Pacific. Now every 1st rounder, even the o linemen get several true RC's.

1989 brought the start of the card 'wars', Topps was joined by Score & Proset, so a rookie could have 3 RC's, and Score & Proset got RC's in their series 1 or 2, Topps responded with a Topps Traded set to release 1989 RC's.

From that point card companies realized the value of a RC the year the player was drafted, the demand was there. Parallels appeared in football in 1991, Wild Card stripes so stars and rookies had multiple cards, inserts appeared in 1992. A way to sell more cards of a rookie, the diehards considered the base card a RC, at best an insert or parallel a 1st year card, but never accepting it to be a true RC. Dealer prices reflected that distinction. It was one way to get people to buy more Dan Marino, John Elway, Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, shrink the base set down, create one or more insert sets, the insert craze caused a lot of money to be exchanged for those elusive chase inserts pre internet, a different era to today.

From that point it became more sophisticated, Pacific with different foil parallels depending on hobby or retail packs, eventually there were true RC cards with autos, and patches, by 2000 my SPx Jets collection had 1st rd pick rookies Chad Pennington, Laveranues Coles & Anthony Becht with autos and swatch in a base card. The demand meant people spent more money opening packs & boxes for a hand signed RC, there was no turning the clock back to simpler times, the money factor took over.

The rule bending of a RC or a true RC became worse, look at 2006 Bowman Sterling, my Jets collection has 1 RC numbered Anthony Schlegel, but Leon Washington & Kellen Clemens with lots of varieties, the patch RC, the patch and auto RC, then there is the parallel patch refractor, and the parallel patch auto refractor. So which is the real true RC for Clemens and Washington, the patch only card. All of those cards are not numbered, Beckett tries to decide, open a magazine and see Santonio Holmes SH1 Jsy is a RC, the SH2 Jsy auto is not, it's crazy, deliberately engineered to try and confuse.

Upper Deck produced cards with different diecuts in SPx, which is the true RC. It is made difficult to know, sometime these card variants have been numbered so which is which, they don't care, it's the collectors trying to make rules who care when buying from dealers, shows, secondary market, are we being sold a 1st year card or a true RC. When it can be a big difference in price, it matters to the buyer, especially if they want to flip it, they don't want to pay $100 for a $10 valued 1st year card..

And that has been the card companies plan, a pack opener finds a card, it's got gold lettering, it says AFC, it's numbered to 25, it must be a RC, maybe it is, is it a true RC, it depends if you care or not, the most common card has silver foil and is diecut NFL and numbered to 599.

Who cares, a good point, it's a first year card, but to sell it on the secondary market, a collector of that card ( it is Dustin Keller 2008) will want that #ed to 25 gold, but a true RC collector will ignore it. Nothing wrong with the card, but it may be one of 3 or 4 parallels produced to get player collectors to buy more instead of the old days one card. Produce inserts and parallel inserts and the player collector will chase more, a simple business plan designed to move more product, less unattractive players in sets so make the sets smaller but add more parallels, more buying of the potential hot rookie.

Samr deal with Bowman Chrome, or Topps Chrome, some people want the rainbow, all 1st year cards I consider them being old school, there is one true RC, and 6-8 parallel 1st year cards. Even if Topps prints RC on the front, it's a 1st year card so I won't pay big bucks for it.

All collectors will never agree on this, as times have moved on and everyones level of caring is different, and the card companies exploit that.

Happy collecting to one and all, collect what makes you happy

Very informative and a good read, thanks!!!!! I also agreee whole heartedly with the last thought.

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07-03-2011, 09:22 AM
Post: #35
RE: Often wondered about this...Updated..
(07-03-2011 08:59 AM)ripkenfan72 Wrote:  Very informative and a good read, thanks!!!!! I also agreee whole heartedly with the last thought.

No kidding, I never knew some of that stuff, very cool man, thanks!

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