[savagenate]

Lol, I can feel vibes of other fingers warming up for the keyboard before I've even said anything...but I'm going to say it, and let you all discuss it. I don't want want it heated or an argument, so feel free to post your thoughts, and then leave well enough alone. We don't need strife in our community when we are all here(I think) to help each other out and for the enjoyment of the hobby. 

So, as I posed to rj a few minutes ago, nothing in this world is perfect. Our form of government (which is a REPUBLIC! NOT A DEMOCRACY!) has holes in it. It wasn't perfect, and was designed for a "moral and just society" according to one Founder. When asked what government we had been given after the Constitution was ratified, Franklin said, "A republic, if you can keep it". So my point is that its the same with the market. It's not perfect, no system is. It relies on the good in the individual to work right. Today, fewer and fewer people practice the good, and instead of focusing on the good of others, its about what we can get for ourselves. I have zero problem with people making a profit, making a good or even great living, as long as its done morally. So yes, I believe these card sharks are abusing the market. Many of us are enabling them by paying these insane prices. Yes, it's the market at work, but in the immoral way. So guys like RJ are helping to keep an eye on them and help us from feeding the fire. 

It sucks, because it effectively knocks collectors like me out of parts of the hobby. I can't afford boxes. Rarely can I afford breaks. Even singles are out of hand in many cases. Thankfully, I still find lots I can get my hands on  So I agree with some of you, this is the world we live in. I also agree with RJ that we don't just stick our heads in the sand. In the end its about finding ways to collect that make this fun and makes us happy. So collect what you can enjoy, don't feed the greed of others, and let's continue to follow in the footsteps of the older group who mentored us, and help make this hobby a place of fun for all! Guys like jplarson, roadrunner, jaderock, favrecollector4, pudge, and many others help shape this hobby either through previous mentorship, or passing the generosity forward. Let's keep it going!

[jplarson]

It really is annoying trying to get any wax to break. Retail used to be an easy thing to hit up on the regular and it's nuts to see the shelves empty all the time. I'm taking the long view on this though. It's a bubble and it's gonna pop. The price I see on Mahomes Donruss Rated Rookie base cards is completely out of whack with supply is but one example. At a certain point rationality will take hold again and the bottom is going to drop out and we'll see tons of posts about how the hobby is dying again.

This time reminds me of when sports cards got huge on eBay, with auction after auction going higher and higher until buyers realized there was tons of supply and prices crashed. Who knew a card serial numbered out of 1000 was actually a lot ?

Keep heart folks, we'll be remembering these days years down the road on how weird everything was.

[fred bear]

Lol, I can feel vibes of other fingers warming up for the keyboard before I've even said anything...but I'm going to say it, and let you all discuss it. I don't want want it heated or an argument, so feel free to post your thoughts, and then leave well enough alone. We don't need strife in our community when we are all here(I think) to help each other out and for the enjoyment of the hobby. 

So, as I posed to rj a few minutes ago, nothing in this world is perfect. Our form of government (which is a REPUBLIC! NOT A DEMOCRACY!) has holes in it. It wasn't perfect, and was designed for a "moral and just society" according to one Founder. When asked what government we had been given after the Constitution was ratified, Franklin said, "A republic, if you can keep it". So my point is that its the same with the market. It's not perfect, no system is. It relies on the good in the individual to work right. Today, fewer and fewer people practice the good, and instead of focusing on the good of others, its about what we can get for ourselves. I have zero problem with people making a profit, making a good or even great living, as long as its done morally. So yes, I believe these card sharks are abusing the market. Many of us are enabling them by paying these insane prices. Yes, it's the market at work, but in the immoral way. So guys like RJ are helping to keep an eye on them and help us from feeding the fire. 

It sucks, because it effectively knocks collectors like me out of parts of the hobby. I can't afford boxes. Rarely can I afford breaks. Even singles are out of hand in many cases. Thankfully, I still find lots I can get my hands on  So I agree with some of you, this is the world we live in. I also agree with RJ that we don't just stick our heads in the sand. In the end its about finding ways to collect that make this fun and makes us happy. So collect what you can enjoy, don't feed the greed of others, and let's continue to follow in the footsteps of the older group who mentored us, and help make this hobby a place of fun for all! Guys like jplarson, roadrunner, jaderock, favrecollector4, pudge, and many others help shape this hobby either through previous mentorship, or passing the generosity forward. Let's keep it going!

I agree with you until you try to apply morality to a fluid situation like the sports card market.

The issue I have is - Who determines morality?

To illustrate my point, I have 3 kids plus myself who 'collect' in my home. I walk into Target where they have freshly restocked. There are 4 blasters of 2019-20 Panini Prizm Basketball on the shelf. Can I buy them all? Am I morally bound to leave a collector out in my house for the good of the collecting community? That rabbit hole is deep and wide and there aren't 'good' answers to every possible question...

We (as a society) are too often quick to pass judgement on the actions of others without understanding the reasons for those actions and that's actually the immoral act, isn't it? Shouldn't somebody ask me about my situation before assuming I'm the scum of the earth and ripping a box of Prizm out of my hands (as was suggested in another post)?

As I said, I agree with you that our community should focus on positive interactions and having helpful attitudes towards our fellow collectors. I think that starts with limiting the cruelness that some posters feel is warranted towards others in the hobby.

[kerryandbeth]

The key is...wait for it..."Collector".  You keep using the word, and that is what makes it a hobby.  Hoarding to sell is not a hobby in any sense of the word, and definitely not deserving any respect on this site!

[fred bear]

The key is...wait for it..."Collector".  You keep using the word, and that is what makes it a hobby.  Hoarding to sell is not a hobby in any sense of the word, and definitely not deserving any respect on this site!

And this is where a fundamentally disagree. I think there's space for everyone.

Here's my background since I don't post much even though I've been a member here for a long time. I belong to several message boards, a few Facebook groups, 3 Discord channels, and am actively learning Instagram. I buy (and sell) on several sites and platforms and consume a lot of podcasts and YouTube content. I'll buy retail boxes, hobby boxes, and singles or graded cards. Some content is heavy with collectors, some is heavy with investors, some is vintage only, some is modern centric, it's all sports cards.

I've collected since 1980 or 1981. My first packs were 1980-81 Topps hockey (just missed Gretzky's rookie card). My first completed set was 1984 Donruss baseball (since split up and most singles traded - the Mattingly got bent holding the box open). My heart is in putting together big sets and I (somewhat religiously) put together OPC hockey each year. It's the most boring product in the most under-collected sport, so I usually find something else to open and trade to obtain RCs or other cards I want or want to hold. I've tried prospecting - not into it. I've chased autos - not into it. I've put together some memorabilia sets - not into it. I tried a player collection - not into it. I tried team collecting - not into it. I like my sets and my RCs and (what I'm sad to say is becoming) my 'vintage' sets from when I was starting out (I finally put together the 80-81 Topps hockey set from packs a few years ago).

I know guys who hoard players, guys who hoard wax, guys who collect teams, player super-collectors, whatever. I know guys who flip, guys who invest, guys who only buy retail, guys who won't ebay, whatever. None of it affects what I enjoy and, I assume, they are enjoying themselves too. This hobby is big enough for everyone to find their niche and enjoy what they want. We, as collectors, should understand that we aren't entitled to anything and, if you do want something that's out of reach, make it happen. Become part of the solution. Find a way.

[kerryandbeth]

Fair enough.  I still wish retail was there on the shelves for occasional purchases while shopping for other items.

[savagenate]

Fred Bear- I never said you shouldn't buy stuff for you and your kids, or just you, or just them, or a friend, or a relative. I also didn't say how many you "should" buy. That had nothing to do with the meat of the post. You want to buy 10 cases of a product to break? Go for it! Want to resell some of the cards you break, or even some of the boxes? Go for it! But should you charge an increase of 10x what you paid for it? Well, if greed is your aim, sure! If it isn't, then a fair price for shipping and what you paid for it makes sense. Or put it at auction, and let others determine the value they are willing to pay.

This post applies to the entire market, not just sports cards. What's the difference between someone buying all the cards, marking them up 150% or more, and selling them. and a big pharma company charging astronomical prices for life saving medicine that costs literally $15 to make? Sure, one is health related, one is hobby, one is needed, the other is nice to have. But the same principle inspires the price gouging. Greed.

I'm not the greatest debater, so hopefully I don't sabotage what I'm trying to say here, but you ask "who decides what's moral?" I'm trying to decide how best to make this argument. Obviously there's the religious side. But even if one doesn't subscribe to religion, there's a natural law that we can know based off our own intuition. We know that it is wrong to lie, steal, kill, hurt someone else without cause, cheat, etc. Go way back, and I believe it was Aristotle who in his writings claimed that temperance was one of the greatest virtues of a moral man. So anyways, to bring this back to cards, I believe it's outright theft to monopolize a product, mark it up, and then sell it. Is it capitalism? Yes. Is there a "law" against it? No. Is it the right thing to do by your fellow man? No. So is it moral? No.

These people are not collectors. They are opportunists who's sole purpose is to take something that someone else wants/needs (depending on product/service) and cheats/steals from you.

Is RJ or me ranting or calling people out going to change anything? Probably not. But both of us are trying to bring back the hobby as it was. We aren't calling anyone out by name *cough* blackrose *cough*, but a practice that is really killing the hobby. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you think we are being too negative, or ignoring the good in the hobby, help us out and post some cool stories, or highlight some of the other good collectors out there!

[savagenate]

It really is annoying trying to get any wax to break.  Retail used to be an easy thing to hit up on the regular and it's nuts to see the shelves empty all the time.  I'm taking the long view on this though.  It's a bubble and it's gonna pop.  The price I see on Mahomes Donruss Rated Rookie base cards is completely out of whack with supply is but one example.  At a certain point rationality will take hold again and the bottom is going to drop out and we'll see tons of posts about how the hobby is dying again.

This time reminds me of when sports cards got huge on eBay, with auction after auction going higher and higher until buyers realized there was tons of supply and prices crashed.  Who knew a card serial numbered out of 1000 was actually a lot ?

Keep heart folks, we'll be remembering these days years down the road on how weird everything was.

Lol! I agree with you. Looking at markets as a whole, the stock, housing, collecting, it's all due to burst here at some point. I think that with a lot of very bored people with the covid thing has led to a lot of sports buying. I mean, you're at home, sitting in front of your computer, pondering what to do next. You open your browser, and the ebay tab stares you back in the face...you know you should do something productive, but man, you just saw a really cool card yesterday and wonder what the set looks like, you can take a minute to look, right? Next thing you know, you've started a whole new collection and you're late for dinner lol!

[rjcj2017]

I agree with you until you try to apply morality to a fluid situation like the sports card market.

The issue I have is - Who determines morality?

To illustrate my point, I have 3 kids plus myself who 'collect' in my home. I walk into Target where they have freshly restocked. There are 4 blasters of 2019-20 Panini Prizm Basketball on the shelf. Can I buy them all? Am I morally bound to leave a collector out in my house for the good of the collecting community? That rabbit hole is deep and wide and there aren't 'good' answers to every possible question...

We (as a society) are too often quick to pass judgement on the actions of others without understanding the reasons for those actions and that's actually the immoral act, isn't it? Shouldn't somebody ask me about my situation before assuming I'm the scum of the earth and ripping a box of Prizm out of my hands (as was suggested in another post)?

As I said, I agree with you that our community should focus on positive interactions and having helpful attitudes towards our fellow collectors. I think that starts with limiting the cruelness that some posters feel is warranted towards others in the hobby.

There's a huge difference between buying four blasters for you and your kids to bust open versus following distributors around from store to store and clearing out every single product before it hits the shelves.

Come on, man. Even you can admit you don't believe they are the same thing. Go ahead.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic.

They are doosh bags. They're not collectors.

They can do what they want.

And I will post about what scumbag idiots they are for doing so whenever I damn well please.

[fred bear]

There's a huge difference between buying four blasters for you and your kids to bust open versus following distributors around from store to store and clearing out every single product before it hits the shelves.

Come on, man. Even you can admit you don't believe they are the same thing. Go ahead.

I'm done, too.

They aren't the same thing. My point being - you can't tell just by looking at it. It requires more information. Information you don't get when you walk up and take blasters out of their cart. 

Coming to the boards, though, and spouting that guys who 'clean out product' must live in their parents basements or are **** or **** is the really disappointing part. It's pretty weak behavior. It's bullying and saying they 'aren't collectors' is sowing the seeds of discrimination. I'm tired of it. I'm sure others are too. I've decided to address it because (1) I enjoy these boards and trading here and (2) I'm introducing my kids to these communities. There are a lot of good people here and on all the other platforms.

Like I said, you missed out on a product at a great price. I can empathize with that and I can share lots of stories of missed opportunities. I'm sorry it's affected you. It simply doesn't make the people who got those blasters any less human or deserving of respect.

And, yes, there are bad people in this hobby. Scammers, pack searchers, card trimmers, and lots of others to be aware of and protect the community from. A guy buying a great product at an unbelievably low price and reselling it isn't automatically one.