[fred bear]

I'm not the greatest debater, so hopefully I don't sabotage what I'm trying to say here, but you ask "who decides what's moral?" I'm trying to decide how best to make this argument. Obviously there's the religious side. But even if one doesn't subscribe to religion, there's a natural law that we can know based off our own intuition. We know that it is wrong to lie, steal, kill, hurt someone else without cause, cheat, etc. Go way back, and I believe it was Aristotle who in his writings claimed that temperance was one of the greatest virtues of a moral man. So anyways, to bring this back to cards, I believe it's outright theft to monopolize a product, mark it up, and then sell it. Is it capitalism? Yes. Is there a "law" against it? No. Is it the right thing to do by your fellow man? No. So is it moral? No.

These people are not collectors. They are opportunists who's sole purpose is to take something that someone else wants/needs (depending on product/service) and cheats/steals from you.

I highlighted the part that's tough for me, personally. You will always have situations which conflict with someone else's definition of 'right' or 'just'. Even in my example, the 'right' thing to do may be to leave a box and just give three to my kids and leave one for someone else instead of taking it for myself. It's not clear.

What if I find a $100 card that I need to complete a set in a dealer's $1 bin. Do I tell him the mistake? Why do guys search dollar bins at a show in the first place? I know lots of guys who do it - "to find deals". There's unfortunately, no clear right or wrong answer in most of these situations.

I know I try to do what I can. Start by being helpful, right. Pay it forward when you can.

But I don't judge, I don't discriminate, I don't bully. Like I said, there are bad people in the hobby. Watch out for the ones who are cheating and stealing for sure. A guy who picks up a $20 blaster because people are paying $125 (or more) on ebay is just not necessarily a bad person by my definition.

[rjcj2017]

I highlighted the part that's tough for me, personally. You will always have situations which conflict with someone else's definition of 'right' or 'just'. Even in my example, the 'right' thing to do may be to leave a box and just give three to my kids and leave one for someone else instead of taking it for myself. It's not clear.

What if I find a $100 card that I need to complete a set in a dealer's $1 bin. Do I tell him the mistake? Why do guys search dollar bins at a show in the first place? I know lots of guys who do it - "to find deals". There's unfortunately, no clear right or wrong answer in most of these situations.

I know I try to do what I can. Start by being helpful, right. Pay it forward when you can.

But I don't judge, I don't discriminate, I don't bully. Like I said, there are bad people in the hobby. Watch out for the ones who are cheating and stealing for sure. A guy who picks up a $20 blaster because people are paying $125 (or more) on ebay is just not necessarily a bad person by my definition.

Fair points all ... except, you continue to not acknowledge the degree of the hoarding.

"A guy who picks up a $20 blaster" ... is not the same thing as a guy who follows the distributor from store to store and clears out the entire display of new product.

But, whatever. We'll agree to disagree.

I will 100 percent continue to judge and discriminate against anyone who, in your words, affects my "enjoyment of the hobby."

Yes, I have many times gotten directly in the face of pack searchers when I catch them in Target or Walmart ... I insult them to their face, asking if they've ever kissed a girl, and/or do they live in their mom's basement, and/or could they at least wash the Cheeto dust off their fingers before they molest the rest of the packs, etc. 

And you know what has literally never happened? Not one - not one single one - has ever stood up to me, or told me to you know what, in the slightest.

Why? Because they know they are doosh bags, and they know they are wrong for doing it.

Do you support pack searchers?

Do you support people who open boxes and then reseal them and return them to the store?

I mean, free market, man ... they "can" do all these things and not get caught.

Pack searchers and box resealers are just collecting their way, right?

We should all just be cool with it, right?

Give me a break.

[kerryandbeth]

I grew up in the church and was taught to love the person but not the poor behavior.  Society has become a me-first environment that is taught and encouraged in the media.

Why do we have to accept this??!

[rjcj2017]

I grew up in the church and was taught to love the person but not the poor behavior.  Society has become a me-first environment that is taught and encouraged in the media.

Why do we have to accept this??!

Agreed, Kerry.

I'm not proud of how I treat pack searchers in the slightest, but if it helps keep them out of my local stores where I buy cards the honest way - take my chances, win some, lose some - then I feel it's a necessary evil.

To answer another of the scenarios above about finding a $100 card in the $1 bin ... this has actually happened to me before.

There used to be a local billiard and dart supply shop in my area that was owned by an older fellow. He carried a few packs and boxes, nothing spectacular, and a few bargain boxes that he marked everything for 15 cents.

15 cents! As in, one dime plus one nickel.

Shortly after Pat Tillman (the former NFL player turned Army Ranger) died overseas, I was looking through said bargain bins and found his Upper Deck MVP RC.

I wasn't looking for it specifically but came across it, and it was a hot card at the time, going in the $20 range online.

I could have kept my mouth shut and walked away with it for 15 cents.

But you know what?

I pointed it out to the owner and asked him if he knew it was a $20 card.

Guess what he said?

"Lucky for you then, young man ... that will be 15 cents."

[jplarson]

I know I try to do what I can. Start by being helpful, right. Pay it forward when you can.

But I don't judge, I don't discriminate, I don't bully. Like I said, there are bad people in the hobby. Watch out for the ones who are cheating and stealing for sure. A guy who picks up a $20 blaster because people are paying $125 (or more) on ebay is just not necessarily a bad person by my definition.

I'm with you on that. I'm all about paying it forward when I can, that's what helps the hobby flourish.

As for buying up a $20 to sell for more online, it is a matter of supply and demand. Panini could be raking in those profits themselves, or Target/Walmart/etc by raising them price themselves.

I ran into the same problem a couple years back looking for a NES and SNES Classic. Multiple times calling stores, driving around, coming up empty. Then I was able to secure a spot in line at Best Buy to pick one up and I heard the family in front of me talking about how they (3 of them) were all buying one to sell on eBay because they already got one. In the strict sense of supply and demand, they are correcting for a market where the good is underpriced and the demand is sky high. Does it make them bad? Ehhh, maybe not a bad person but I would question their ethics. Cards aren't a critical necessity like cleaning solution, paper products, masks, etc. Those who price gouge on those are not good people.

Going back to the blaster box example, the other thing to consider is the buyer. They clearly think they are getting a good value otherwise they wouldn't spend the money. If everyone wasn't willing to pay so much for a $20 blaster, then the retail sharks would head out to feed on some other chum.

To go back to RJ's specific point about people following distributors to buy up everything to flip, that crosses the line in my book. If a person walks in and the product is there, hey, fair game. Stalking a distributor to buy everything up is a big ol' nope burger.

Do you support pack searchers?

Do you support people who open boxes and then reseal them and return them to the store?

I mean, free market, man ... they "can" do all these things and not get caught.

Pack searchers and box resealers are just collecting their way, right?

We should all just be cool with it, right?

I think that's rhetorical, the previous poster did say "there are bad people in the hobby. Watch out for the ones who are cheating and stealing for sure." Pack searchers, resealers, etc are thieves and cheaters and no one is cool with that.

To answer another of the scenarios above about finding a $100 card in the $1 bin ... this has actually happened to me before.

There used to be a local billiard and dart supply shop in my area that was owned by an older fellow. He carried a few packs and boxes, nothing spectacular, and a few bargain boxes that he marked everything for 15 cents.

15 cents! As in, one dime plus one nickel.

Shortly after Pat Tillman (the former NFL player turned Army Ranger) died overseas, I was looking through said bargain bins and found his Upper Deck MVP RC.

I wasn't looking for it specifically but came across it, and it was a hot card at the time, going in the $20 range online.

I could have kept my mouth shut and walked away with it for 15 cents.

But you know what?

I pointed it out to the owner and asked him if he knew it was a $20 card.

Guess what he said?

"Lucky for you then, young man ... that will be 15 cents."

That is a noble thing you did to bring it up to the seller. That's the type of ethics we need to see more of in the world, even outside of the sports hobby like Kerry mentioned.

[fred bear]

Fair points all ... except, you continue to not acknowledge the degree of the hoarding.

"A guy who picks up a $20 blaster" ... is not the same thing as a guy who follows the distributor from store to store and clears out the entire display of new product.

But, whatever. We'll agree to disagree.

I will 100 percent continue to judge and discriminate against anyone who, in your words, affects my "enjoyment of the hobby."

Yes, I have many times gotten directly in the face of pack searchers when I catch them in Target or Walmart ... I insult them to their face, asking if they've ever kissed a girl, and/or do they live in their mom's basement, and/or could they at least wash the Cheeto dust off their fingers before they molest the rest of the packs, etc. 

I do and have acknowledged they are different. The result is the same, though, product isn't on the shelf when you or I get there. So I don't care how it happened or what happened to the product - it wasn't mine and I wasn't entitled to it. [You could also go with an analogous argument. Years ago, I did work for an LCS. We bought and bought from the distributor and our allocation on The Cup - 0 boxes. Fair? Nope. The way life works sometimes? Yep.]

As I've tried to explain numerous times, the guy is following the distributor because it's worth it for him to do it and, hey, maybe he enjoys it. Those basketball (and most are anticipating football) blasters are HOT. A $20 box of 19-20 Prizm basketball sells for $275 on ebay (close to 80% margin AFTER fees, etc.). It's the market driving this, not the person. Make it easier to swallow? Likely not, because it would be awesome to open a $275 blaster for $20. Next season, he won't have anything to chase and product will return. Again, it sucks this year, I get it. I understand the frustration. But, man, Panini did a great job creating sets with hype that has invigorated the hobby, right? I mean people are paying over $100 for an NBA Hoops blaster - that's amazing.

Even if you don't want to look at the hobby-positive perspective, in my opinion, it doesn't make it ok to call someone names or spread the vitriol through the community. Adults can confront one another without devolving it to that. And I'm fine if you want to agree to disagree, but I'll ask, politely, to keep the abusive language to yourself.

[pudge27t]

Just my 2 cents & it's only from a hobby point of view. You only can control what you can control. I do what I do to bring back joy, fun & the love of the hobby back SPECIFICALLY because the mentioned negative activity that goes on in the hobby.
This notion of a "doing the right thing" is more of a guideline than a rule. Who is more of a fool? Me? For expecting you to do the right thing. Or You? For not doing what's deemed "right"?
Life is never going to be "fair", so why would you expect people to be?

I don't necessarily agree with the "blackrose" people of the hobby but as much as I love collecting sports cards, it's JUST A HOBBY. People get that line distorted since so much money is dumped into it. Because if it's more than a hobby to you, well then it's simple economics of supply and demand.

[rjcj2017]

I do and have acknowledged they are different. The result is the same, though, product isn't on the shelf when you or I get there. So I don't care how it happened or what happened to the product - it wasn't mine and I wasn't entitled to it. [You could also go with an analogous argument. Years ago, I did work for an LCS. We bought and bought from the distributor and our allocation on The Cup - 0 boxes. Fair? Nope. The way life works sometimes? Yep.]

As I've tried to explain numerous times, the guy is following the distributor because it's worth it for him to do it and, hey, maybe he enjoys it. Those basketball (and most are anticipating football) blasters are HOT. A $20 box of 19-20 Prizm basketball sells for $275 on ebay (close to 80% margin AFTER fees, etc.). It's the market driving this, not the person. Make it easier to swallow? Likely not, because it would be awesome to open a $275 blaster for $20. Next season, he won't have anything to chase and product will return. Again, it sucks this year, I get it. I understand the frustration. But, man, Panini did a great job creating sets with hype that has invigorated the hobby, right? I mean people are paying over $100 for an NBA Hoops blaster - that's amazing.

Even if you don't want to look at the hobby-positive perspective, in my opinion, it doesn't make it ok to call someone names or spread the vitriol through the community. Adults can confront one another without devolving it to that. And I'm fine if you want to agree to disagree, but I'll ask, politely, to keep the abusive language to yourself.

What abusive language? None has been directed at you whatsoever ... I reserve it for doosh bag pack searchers, scum bag box resealers and idiot retail sharks.

If you don't like this specific topic or these specific threads, by all means ... go enjoy the hobby someplace else.

[kerryandbeth]

Talk about a screwed-up society...

Call the President an 'idiot' and nobody bats any eye.
Call an unborn baby an inconvenience and be given free health care.

But...
Call a complete stranger a 'loser' and people want to attack your character.
Call people destroying public and private property 'rioters' and get labeled a racist.

[savagenate]

Talk about a screwed-up society...

Call the President an 'idiot' and nobody bats any eye.
Call an unborn baby an inconvenience and be given free health care.

But...
Call a complete stranger a 'loser' and people want to attack your character.
Call people destroying public and private property 'rioters' and get labeled a racist.

Amen. But that's opening a whole other can of worms lol. 
This thread got a little out of hand, I expected some push back, but thought it would be directed at me lol. I guess this is one of those times where leading by example is the best way to go, as words don't reach everyone. I'm grateful that outside of blackrose and one random facebook person, I've had nothing but good experiences and mentors in the hobby! That's a testament to the majority of people. How many communities or groups can you say that about?