(11-28-2012 01:13 PM)mickey7mantle7 Wrote: Well, if you PM me I'll manipulate you plenty lol...would love to see pics of what you have. If you have scanner access that would be best. Open a photobucket account and upload them there, then copy the IMG CODE here or in a PM, which ever you would prefer..
(11-28-2012 12:43 PM)Troubless Wrote: Good question! As I said I started collecting in the mid 90s, and I stopped in 2001, both because it was getting too expensive and I didn't want any Jordan cards in a Wizard's uniform. I put my collection away for some 10 years now, and I just got on Beckett to check some of the prices and see the evolution of some of the top end cards. Needless to say I was surprised to see that the bulk of my collection was very much in demand. Selling now with a view to buy back later when prices have corrected might sound like a good idea IF there is some price manipulation going on. Any views?
(11-30-2012 10:09 PM)rare23air83 Wrote: Welcome to the forum! It looks like you have some great MJ cards. We'd love to see them. There's a HUGE difference in demand/value of the cards from back in 2001 compared to 2012 now as you can clearly see it evident in both Beckett Values and Market Values.
It's a long read but very well worth it if you want insight on Jordan cards, 90's inserts and the market.
There have been lots of talk/debates and unbelievable sales throughout the past 3-5 years regarding 90's inserts (especially Michael Jordan) as most of the Basketball hobby world knows by now. I wanted to share my input from personal experience, my history in the hobby, research, as well as many other collectors around the world that have shared their stories with me. For those who don't quite understand why the hobby has turned the way it has... maybe this will shed some light and help you understand why the demographic of 90's insert collectors/dealers collect and spend thousands on things they do.
First off... the 90's was absolutely THE GOLDEN ERA of Basketball cards period. It was the first decade to introduce real inserts, parallel inserts, game used cards, auto's and Serial #'d cards. The Pioneers of modern basketball cards. And as we all know in the collector's world... it's the ORIGINAL first prints or the first editions of anything that's worth the most. Not the ones that followed or mimic it later on. One of the very first real parallel inserts were from the 1993-94 Finest set with their Refractors. Turned the hobby world upside down and I remember these Refractors were the hottest thing in the hobby. That's really what started it all. The first game jersey cards were introduced in the 1997-98 Upper Deck sets with their Game Jersey cards and the infamous Jordan Jersey Auto card. The first ever GU Auto card that revolutionized Basketball cards and lead the way to how it is now. Also, 1996-97 & 1997-98 cards were the MAIN years where rare Serial #'d cards were first introduced. Not only were base cards mass MASS produced during this time, but some of these inserts had ULTRA high odds compared to modern cards now. Very rare when you compare. Odds such as 1:50,000 packs and so forth. Almost impossible to pull unless you had unbelievable luck. You'd have to literally open thousand and thousands of packs to even have a chance at pulling one of your desired player. This is the decade when Basketball cards really bloomed. That, including the popularity of the NBA with a guy named Michael Jordan and the Bulls that DOMINATED the game for the ENTIRE decade. A global sports icon unmatched by anyone.
It's almost too perfect as the popularity of basketball card collecting and Michael Jordan's NBA success went hand in hand. What coincidence that all these inserts, GU Auto's and Serial #'d cards were first introduced during the height of Jordan's career as a Bulls right before he left. A very small window of time that overlaps the career of the Greatest of All Time and the introduction of such inserts. Just 2 years only from 1996-1998. So in reality, only these 2 short years consisted rare GU/Auto/Serial #'d inserts that featured Jordan while he was STILL playing as a Bulls which just so happens to be the first of it's kind. Twice the reason for such HIGH demand.
And to add... this demographic of collectors consider TRUE MJ cards or any player card for that matter... cards that were produced and released DURING the player's career in their respective sports. You can agree or disagree, but as an example... a Babe Ruth collector would consider his 1933 Goudy card a true Babe Ruth card and not his 2000 Upper Deck Game Used Bat Babe Ruth card. That would be more of a "Tribute Card" than a true Babe Ruth card. So for MJ in the BULLS uniform... it's these short span of years during the 90's.
Another very important but many times neglected fact is that the game of basketball card collecting was COMPLETELY different back then compared to how it is now. There were more kids that collected and bought packs/boxes at their local card shop than there are now. Needless to say, cards were also handled much differently back then. Lots of kids stored their cards in shoe boxes, tied in rubberbands, binders, shoved into bicycle wheels, etc. Many of them also outgrew the hobby and have either given them away or threw them out over the years. Sometimes even their moms throwing out old boxes and so forth. Cards were MUCH more prone to being damaged, lost or thrown away. Fast forward 15-20 years to today... collectors now spend a whole lot more on cases and packs. Packs that cost $300-$500 where no ordinary child can afford. No doubt, it's an adult oriented market now. In addition, when these cards are purchased by these adult collectors and a rare card pops up... they get it graded or place it in strong sturdy cases almost immediately. Stashed away in a safe place. Hardly any get thrown out by accident or shoved into a shoebox, never to be found.
Which brings me to my next point. A rare 90's Serial #'d insert numbered to /50, compared to a 2005-06 GU Auto Patch card Serial #'d to /50 is also very different in comparison of scarcity. Sure the production numbers are the same at 50, but chances are that A LOT more of the 15+ year old 90's inserts were damaged, lost or still stuck in boxes in a shed somewhere throughout all the years. Some may call that an assumption, but most would agree that this is true. Again, it's a totally different game today than it was back then. Collectors will immediately store rare cards away in modern collecting. Collectors and kids back then did not. At least not nearly the same amount as they do today. Some didn't even know the difference between a base card and a rare Serial #'d parallel insert in the same set.
Now I'm not bashing modern cards by any means. Some of these Exquisites and NT's are very nice and I someday wish to expand my collection with these. But Game Used cards, Auto's and Serial #'d cards are WAY too over-saturated now. You're almost guaranteed one of these in every pack/box. They're more common now than ever. You can open a Beckett anytime of the year and see the small amount of GU Auto cards/Serial #'d cards there were in the 90's compared to the exponentially higher amount you see after 2000+ and up. These cards were quite SPECIAL and very limited in the 90's. Michael Jordan Auto cards were worth thousands and considered one of the rarest you could get. Now-a-days, you can find TONS of MJ Auto cards, GU cards and Serial #'d cards from 2000+ and up for as low as $100 bucks on any given day online. Sometimes even lower. And it's quite evident that Serial numbering has been abused as well. There are 1/1's everywhere now and many different versions of them. It's borderline sad how every other card has a game used jersey piece or an auto. Even at the local Tri-Star show in SF, I would see boxes and boxes of modern cards in $10 dollar bins that ALL had some sort of Game Jersey or Autos on them. It's definitely lost that "specialness" or aura that they used to have in the Golden days of the 90's. Not saying they're not special anymore... but at least not in the same sense as they were during the beginning.
A few years ago during during uncertain times of the NBA, the hobby, and even during one of the worst economic recessions... only one player came out stronger than ever. Michael Jordan. His cards/memorabilia are untouched by whatever that goes on. His legendary legacy is already sealed in history and is widely conceived as the Greatest of All Time. He was named the Athlete of the Century and is on the top of endless stat sheets. Every new superstar is compared to his greatness year after year. His popularity STILL surpasses almost EVERY current player which is evident on social media website followers, search words on Google, etc. even after a decade of not playing a single sport. The only athlete to STILL come out with new shoes every 6 months that's always on the #1 list at your local foot locker. People camping out in lines to purchase a pair. Sometimes even stabbing someone for Jordans. You go to a mall on any given day and you will see Jumpmans plastered everywhere. T-shirts, sweats, hats, jerseys, backpacks, etc. No other athlete has had and continues to have such a huge market than Mr. Jordan. His name is mentioned all the time in current NBA games and even in other sports/categories. The "Michael Jordan" of... etc. Simply, the Greatest of All Time. Michael Jordan is to Basketball, as Babe Ruth/Mickey Mantle is to Baseball. Muhammed Ali to Boxing. Wayne Gretzsky to Hockey. Pele to Soccer. etc.
If you've been in the Basketball card hobby since the 90's, you will know that MJ was always the most valuable/expensive player to collect. It was always evident at your local card shops and their sticker prices, Beckett magazines, Tuff Stuff price guides, etc. A lot more valuable/expensive than the next most valuable player card on the list. It's always been like that and still is today. People or kids that collected back in the 90's have all grown up now with careers and have disposable income. They finally have the money to afford and participate in the market whereas back then, there was no way you could even think about spending $100 bucks on a single card, let alone thousands when you're just a kid. There's also Nostalgia that plays a huge role in one of the reasons why people love to collect 90's inserts. You know what they say... Nostalgia is priceless and it's obvious rich collectors have no problem paying incredibly high amounts to obtain what they've always wanted since they were kids.
If any player... past or present has staying power... it's Jordan. The hobby has witnessed and knows this truth. One of the many reasons why Jordan cards have always been worth the most above all players. Many potential stars have come and gone. Every new blazing rookie receives HOT buzz in the beginning and many fall short. Always compared as being "the next Jordan" only to fall short everytime. To many collectors, Jordan cards are the safest player to invest in. His legacy is already finished and established as the best of the best. Sure it's very expensive to begin with, but there's smaller risk of MJ's key cards dropping drastically in value/demand as opposed to a new Rookie star that has yet to prove himself completely till his retirement. Injuries, stats, championships, etc. can all change the outcome. Kobe also has the staying power. Not quite up to Jordan but still far above most other players when it comes to cards. He's proven himself as being the best in today's game. Has the championship rings and stats to back it up.
I'm still leaving out a bunch more reasons... but all of these things added up should give you an idea why 90's inserts have been the way they are and most of the time valued MUCH higher than modern cards that have all the bells and whistles to help their value like Game Used Pieces and Autographs.
Of course people are entitled to have their own opinions about anything no matter how the world is. That is why there are people who badmouth the whole thing and all the collectors/dealers that participate in this market. But no one can deny that there are hundreds and thousands of collectors around the world that ARE devoted to 90's inserts for many of the reasons mentioned above. They participate from $10 inserts all the way up to $50k+ cards every second of the day on eBay/Forums/Auction houses/Private sales. Sure there are some manipulated auctions that are very obvious to everyone... but that exists in EVERY market. Not only Jordan cards but baseball cards, Coins, Stamps, Beanie Babies, Chanel Purses, Electronics, Paintings, Jewelry, etc. There's ALWAYS going to be foul play in any business market somewhere along the way. But when the market is going the way it has been without slowing down for 5+ years with thousands of cards selling each day by countless participants, you can't deny the fact that it is really happening. At least a good chunk of it. Some conspiracy driven people think the entire market is being manipulated by a handful of frauds. Some think it all started by a single sale of a PMG Red which was sold for over $11k a couple years ago.
It's impossible to manipulate an entire market. No one person or a group of people can have the power to change thousands of collectors around the world to participate heavily like the way it has been by a few fake sales here and there. People aren't stupid. There are brilliant minds that collect and spend thousands on high end 90's inserts that are FAR FAR from being ignorant and stupid. If anything, they are more investment minded folks that have all succeeded in their businesses or careers. That's calling everyone of them out. Another thing that isn't openly talked about is what will happen when Jordan passes away. God forbid that happens anytime soon... it's bound to happen at some point. And when it does, many believe that it will be the BIGGEST price surge the hobby has ever seen. The crazy high prices we've seen over the years might seem small compared to later years when the G.O.A.T. passes on.
So really... if you don't NEED the money, I'd hold onto your gems. They will surely keep going up with more time. Imagine holding onto them for another 10-20 years. You'll be sitting on the best investment you've ever made.
(11-30-2012 11:17 PM)bengu Wrote: wow Jun.... great piece on Jordan and why he's the absolute GREATEST OF ALL TIME in both sports & the hobby!!!
(11-30-2012 05:46 PM)Troubless Wrote: Here's my two cents from an international perspective. Football might be number one in the USA, but despite the NFL's efforts with regular games outside of the US, there is little, if any interest for football elsewhere. Baseball might be big in Japan, but there is very little interest anywhere else. Basketball on the other hand is a global game. You only need to look at the NBA today which is almost unrecognisable from 20 years ago, with so many international players, some of which have had a real impact too. That's why the interest in the NBA has been growing steadily. "Linsanity" for instance was fuelled mainly by interest from Asia.
Of course card collecting may not be as traditional in other countries as in the US, but I've seen interest in the hobby grow on a regular basis in Europe and in Asia. Some of the main collectors of basketball cards are in Asia today. And with the US dollar losing ground against most of the asian currencies over the last years, their purchasing power has been increasing too. That's why I believe basketball cards have the biggest upside potential of all sportscards.
(11-30-2012 11:11 PM)hegotgame1515 Wrote: I totally agree with most of what you're saying with one major exception, that being, i believe that the entire MJ market is on the verge of a big downward spiral.
Most, if not all MJ cards have been selling below normal selling points with some Mid-90's mid priced $50-$400 selling at half of what we would normally see....
Only the extremely rare low pop or low numbered cards are still doing well, with Fleer retro,the latest exqusite and even Auto's consistently selling for less and less.
I believe that NOW is the ultimate time to try and secure the tuff cards to find, while the market seems to be getting weaker.
I don't mind at all if the MJ market continues to slide as it has been doing, as it will make it easyer for collector's to secure some great cards(myself included).
I'm sure the market will take off again when the economy picks up or we get an influx of new hobbyists.
I just think that the investment side of the hobby is going to be hit and its going to take a few years before the invester's will see good returns.
That's my opinion and i'm more then happy to be proven wrong!
(12-01-2012 03:37 AM)Troubless Wrote: I agree, great piece indeed, thanks Jun!! There is one argument that you left out, and that's the international appeal of basketball in general and Jordan in particular. This is the piece I wrote in another thread on this issue:
I will try to get some pics up from the rarer pieces of my collection soon.
(12-04-2012 06:43 PM)mickey7mantle7 Wrote: Great read guys...interesting stuff as always.
I must admit, I have purchased some inserts close to high book and some closer to low book. Guess it depends on the timing of the auctions as well...