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Knowledge is power
#11

RE: Knowledge is power
foleylion08 Wrote:Gotta go with Larson on this. They may have other avenues, but this one is "tried and true". They know it gets attention, so why try something else that may or may not be as effective?

Protests aren't meant to be butterflies and rainbows. If they don't ruffle feathers, there's no point.

Couldn't Rosa Parks have done something besides not getting up on that bus? Couldn't Martin Luther King Jr. have done some things a bit less radical?
Well, it's about to cost them a lot of fans, revenue, and prestige, so those are good reasons not to lol. These guys all have events, foundations, press conferences, etc. There are a lot of ways they could still get the attention of everyone without doing it at the Anthem and before the Flag. 


Rosa Parks is a completely different situation, I don't think they can compare.
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#12

RE: Knowledge is power
pudge27t Wrote:I'm with Larson on this one.

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The platform is to be used as a voice. Especially with the injustices that are STILL going on til' this day. 
I mean DANG, it's 2020.  Angry
It was NEVER about the flag as stated many, many, many times.  Angel
I'm a veteran as well and COMPLETELY understand the message. SILENT one at that.
Now with media twisting the narrative & trying to make it a political thing is nonsense.
It's crazy to me how people don't get the simple concept of "Divide & Conquer". 

The fact that the NFL was paid by the military to make it more patriotic is WAY overlooked.
It's about money, as is everything else these days.
If the platform is to be used, would you be supportive of other messages that you may not agree with? Guys like Tebow and Rivers are censored from speaking about beliefs and causes that are important to them. They are ridiculed and made fun of, but no one comes to their defense. Or a coach wearing a shirt that supports an organization you don't agree with? Or Brees stating his opinion, without condemning anyone, and getting roasted by his own teammates on social media for it. Right now it seems that many only want to hear one message, and want to ignore everything else. I'm not saying to ignore the injustices in the world, but I feel like people, and like you said the media, love to pick and chose which issues to focus on.  I believe its a moral issue, not a political one, at the heart of the problem, not the kneeling. 
Thank you for your service!
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#13

RE: Knowledge is power
One of my favorite episodes of Andy Griffith Show was about two dads who refused to let their kids marry each other because the two families were feuding. When Andy asked them why they were feuding, neither dad could tell the reason.

Kind of like that currently.
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#14

RE: Knowledge is power
(06-16-2020, 09:39 AM)savagenate Wrote: Well, it's about to cost them a lot of fans, revenue, and prestige, so those are good reasons not to lol. These guys all have events, foundations, press conferences, etc. There are a lot of ways they could still get the attention of everyone without doing it at the Anthem and before the Flag. 


Rosa Parks is a completely different situation, I don't think they can compare.
No event, foundation or press conference is ever going to have the impact of a broadcast NFL game that reaches millions. And you know what's worth more than revenue, fans and prestige? Justice. Most of these guys are already set for life with their current earnings. I think they'd rather have what they're fighting for than the future money.
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#15

RE: Knowledge is power
(06-16-2020, 09:52 AM)savagenate Wrote: If the platform is to be used, would you be supportive of other messages that you may not agree with? Guys like Tebow and Rivers are censored from speaking about beliefs and causes that are important to them. They are ridiculed and made fun of, but no one comes to their defense. Or a coach wearing a shirt that supports an organization you don't agree with? Or Brees stating his opinion, without condemning anyone, and getting roasted by his own teammates on social media for it. Right now it seems that many only want to hear one message, and want to ignore everything else. I'm not saying to ignore the injustices in the world, but I feel like people, and like you said the media, love to pick and chose which issues to focus on.  I believe its a moral issue, not a political one, at the heart of the problem, not the kneeling. 
Tebow and Rivers are completely different. They're fighting for their faith, which isn't exactly under persecution. If cops were out on the streets shooting Catholics, maybe that would be the same thing. Who's censoring Tebow and Rivers? It's well known that these guys are strong in their faith and champions of Christ. Not sure what they're not being allowed to say? Maybe they should hold a press conference, or speak at one of their foundations, right?

Of course people are going to hear what they want to hear and pay attention to what they want to pay attention to, that's human nature. But would you not agree that some issues NEED to be heard more than others?

They have the right to speak about anything they want to speak about, but there is not freedom from repercussions.
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#16

RE: Knowledge is power
savagenate Wrote:Yeah, and I think the players should be on the field for it.

Ideally everyone should feel moved to show their support by standing at attention for the national anthem.  I recognize  that how I view the flag and what it stands for is not equally shared by all.  Marginalized groups in this country see the flag and view it as something they don't get to equally share in.  Behind the flag are the patriots who helped found the country, service members who helped preserve it, and citizens from all walks of life past and present who help make this country what it is.  The founding document for our country states in part:

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

I think there are groups in this country that do not enjoy the unalienable right of life and liberty.  So when people protest by kneeling during the presentation of the national anthem, they are exercising their right to alter a form of government they view as destructive to those ends.  It makes me sad and makes me wish our country wasn't in a situation where people felt this was necessary.  But I think we are and if I have to be put outside my comfort zone to see it, then I grow as a person and maybe I can help make this country a place where people don't feel marginalized.  

I recognize my opinion is not shared by all and I welcome challenges to this viewpoint.  It makes me introspective and ensure I'm not speaking from ignorance or stupidity.

pudge27t Wrote:The fact that the NFL was paid by the military to make it more patriotic is WAY overlooked.
It's about money, as is everything else these days.
Paid patriotism is gross and adds to a cynicism I struggle with.  Good point to mention.

foleylion08 Wrote:They have the right to speak about anything they want to speak about, but there is not freedom from repercussions.

Agreed and I think people need to recognize (for example) that if I say something like "the Packers stink" doesn't mean I won't get richly dunked on with Cutler, Trubisky, and Parkey memes until the end of time.
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#17

RE: Knowledge is power
Tough subject to talk about but that's a lot of the problem, we no longer communicate. We go to our respective corners and we are not willing to talk to the other side because we know what the answer "should be" before we listen to opposing points of view.

I understand why athletes choose to kneel during the national anthem, it's because it will guarantee exposure and debate. I don't like it, but I get it. Because there is controversy here the media will pounce and make it front page news with the hopes of keeping the controversy going to gain viewership/readership. White house reporters will ask stupid questions to the President about what he thinks about the kneeling etc....follow the money.

There is a lot of talk about patriotism and the national anthem but this is a sporting event and it has very little to do with patriotism. In fact, what it has to do with again is money. I am a huge NFL fan, but it's just a sport I watch on TV and collect some pieces of cardboard from. I am feeding the NFL coffers like everyone else. I don't feel patriotic because I watch football and really don't know where the tradition came from that we play our national anthem at sporting events.

My recommendation is to watch and enjoy your sporting events...or don't, but don't let it influence your own patriotism or love of our country. They are just sporting events for our entertainment don't make them more than they really are.
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#18

RE: Knowledge is power
foleylion08 Wrote:No event, foundation or press conference is ever going to have the impact of a broadcast NFL game that reaches millions. And you know what's worth more than revenue, fans and prestige? Justice. Most of these guys are already set for life with their current earnings. I think they'd rather have what they're fighting for than the future money.
Yet these guys will hold out and kick and scream to sign record setting contracts and charge hundreds of dollars to give fans their autograph or take a picture with them. It's definitely about the money. I don't doubt that at least most of them truly want justice, but they are in most cases ill-informed, and often hypocritical. They want and institution to change (which I agree needs changing), but they ignore the root of the problems. They can't expect things to truly change unless they are willing to work on change themselves. I don't want this post to get political or overly in depth, so I won't get into details. We can all find them if we want them. My intent was to clarify what the Flag stands for, and why I believe it's hypocritical or ironic as to why these players are kneeling.
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#19

RE: Knowledge is power
foleylion08 Wrote:Tebow and Rivers are completely different. They're fighting for their faith, which isn't exactly under persecution. If cops were out on the streets shooting Catholics, maybe that would be the same thing. Who's censoring Tebow and Rivers? It's well known that these guys are strong in their faith and champions of Christ. Not sure what they're not being allowed to say? Maybe they should hold a press conference, or speak at one of their foundations, right?

Of course people are going to hear what they want to hear and pay attention to what they want to pay attention to, that's human nature. But would you not agree that some issues NEED to be heard more than others?

They have the right to speak about anything they want to speak about, but there is not freedom from repercussions.
I don't believe that they are different. People today have decided to define some Christian/Catholic dogmas as "beliefs" so that they can ignore the issues which are very much rights driven. It's my opinion, based off of my own experiences as a Catholic, that persecution is live and well, but thankfully we aren't being shot. I certainly hope we never see that!  But anyways, these guys do use their platforms to the best of their abilities to promote their ideas of rights, justice and faith. It's my belief that Tebow was blackballed from the league due to his openness about his Christian causes. Sure, you can argue talent or lack there of, but the guy was a winner, a leader, and a competitor. They aren't allowed to make their beliefs known at press conferences. No one has a problem with Sherman doing so. 

And I do agree with you, there are some causes that definitely NEED to be heard more than others, as not much attention is paid to them, or maybe people are ill informed about the issues, etc. Looking at the big picture, I don't believe that the right message is being sent right now. I full agree that the black community faces challenges that many others don't As much as I believe policing needs to change, I believe there are other, bigger issues affecting their communities, and the world as a whole. Again, I don't want to get into detail as I didn't intend for this post to start a firestorm.
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#20

RE: Knowledge is power
jplarson Wrote:Ideally everyone should feel moved to show their support by standing at attention for the national anthem.  I recognize  that how I view the flag and what it stands for is not equally shared by all.  Marginalized groups in this country see the flag and view it as something they don't get to equally share in.  Behind the flag are the patriots who helped found the country, service members who helped preserve it, and citizens from all walks of life past and present who help make this country what it is.  The founding document for our country states in part:

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

I think there are groups in this country that do not enjoy the unalienable right of life and liberty.  So when people protest by kneeling during the presentation of the national anthem, they are exercising their right to alter a form of government they view as destructive to those ends.  It makes me sad and makes me wish our country wasn't in a situation where people felt this was necessary.  But I think we are and if I have to be put outside my comfort zone to see it, then I grow as a person and maybe I can help make this country a place where people don't feel marginalized.  

I recognize my opinion is not shared by all and I welcome challenges to this viewpoint.  It makes me introspective and ensure I'm not speaking from ignorance or stupidity.


Paid patriotism is gross and adds to a cynicism I struggle with.  Good point to mention.



Agreed and I think people need to recognize (for example) that if I say something like "the Packers stink" doesn't mean I won't get richly dunked on with Cutler, Trubisky, and Parkey memes until the end of time.
I can see your point JP. And seeking redress of grievances from our government is definitely one of our rights, and duties as Americans. I just don't believe that is the place to do it.
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