[Hofcollector]

what i was saying is that you are not selling investments. u are selling sports cards. when i buy a card from u im not buying it to sell later. im buying it cuz i want to add it to my collection. with ur definition of investment everything is an investment. the lamp i bought last week could be a resellable antique in 50 yrs. and i could have bought it to resell or i could have bought it cuz i like lamps. the main purpose of it is not investing in other words it collecting. same with sports cards. if all that sports cards were were investments then the hobby wouldve died out soon after it first started. if you ask 99 percent of ppl who buy sports cards it isnt to invest their money lol it cuz they like collecting.

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this is a false statment. a card store owner who opens a shop in the neighbourhood or on ebay is not investing in sportscards he is selling sports cards. he gets his profit not buying a card at a price it is sellable at the time of purchase but at a discount to sell it at that sellable price afterward. he will offer you a third a quarter or perhaps half of what he thinks the going rate for the card is. he is a seller of sportscards. he also buys from the card makers at a price then sells it at a higher amount to his customers. if he was an investor then he would be giving topps or upper deck his money in return for shares in the company and share in the profits through dividends or the resale of his shares to
another investor.

an investor takes his money and gives it out to a 2nd party to receive a higher amount back at a later date. it may be guarenteed or risky.an investor doesnt buy product from a company to sell it at a profit to a collector. doing this makes you a seller not an investor. and your product a product not an investment.

Sorry bud, but your about 20 years behind in the industry. If you asked, 99% of collectors will tell you they chase big dollar cards and constantly try to trade up to increase the value of their collections. And why would we do this? Because ultimately nearly everyone see's a dollar sign attached to each and every card they own. And while I agree that every dollar people throw at their collection isn't initially meant for investing, virtually every collector tries to angle for cards that they believe will increase in value with the sole purpose of future sales or getting more in trade for card "x" than what they have in to it. Investing.

As to your store owner point, I'm at a complete loss for words. I'm assuming you've never owned your own business. That's not meant to be a slight, just an observation. Literally anyone can tell you that anyone who spends any money on their own business is investing in that business. When I buy tools, work clothes, meals, etc I get to write it all off as an investment into my business. Clothes will never truly net me a return but as my accountant has stated, being presentable in order to obtain work is a direct investment into my business and ultimately I can write it all off. ANY TIME A SHOP OWNER PURCHASES ANYTHING AT ALL, IT IS AN INVESTMENT. From top loaders to singles every move he makes is to insure customers return to do business in the future. The idea that you need to give money to a second party and wait an extended amount of time to turn a profit in order to be an investment is so far from a reality. When a local builder comes to me and says, "I've just bought a house to flip quickly and I don't want to use bank money. Would you be interested in investing $10,000 for a month and I can hand you $12,500 back in 30 days?", they don't correct themselves (ever) and say, "I'm sorry, I don't mean invest. It's too short of a time period. Would you like to sell me some money for 30 days"? Nope. It's an investment. And if he pays me back a week earlier it's still going to be an investment. Of course they're not all investors. But nobody is buying $500+ cards because they're super pretty.

*Also, I don't know a single shop owner who's looking to sell his stock at 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 of fair market value unless he's actually going out of business and for some reason has never heard of the internet.


I do like this back and forth though btw.

[scottbdoug]

*Also, I don't know a single shop owner who's looking to sell his stock at 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 of fair market value unless he's actually going out of business and for some reason has never heard of the internet.


I do like this back and forth though btw.

The store owner is BUYING, not selling at a third or quarter. it's how he makes aprofit, if a card it worth 50 dollars he will buy it for 25 dollars or less depending on how quickly he can sell it afterward. he isnt investing he is selling. investing is like i said giving your money for a return of a higher amount of money.

[Hofcollector]

The store owner is BUYING, not selling at a third or quarter. it's how he makes aprofit, if a card it worth 50 dollars he will buy it for 25 dollars or less depending on how quickly he can sell it afterward. he isnt investing he is selling. investing is like i said giving your money for a return of a higher amount of money.

Which is selling for a profit.

Well I realize I may not be explaining this so it's easily understandable so I had a discussion with my good friend Webster and here's what he had to offer: to invest is to put money to use, by purchase or expenditure, in something offering potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value. Or, to use money, as in accumulating something.

In plain terms, to put money towards anything that you believe has potential to make you more money than you put in to it. You'll notice there's no time frame, no mention of handing money to a second party for he or she to invest and the last bit when it's stated that literally no actual money ever need change hands and that investing can come in the form of (belief of) appreciation in value, say if you invested in rare coins or... sports cards.

As to your point earlier of belief that nearly everyone collects, collects solely for the love of sports cards (with little to no regard for the money aspect) I'd say that in light of this clarification that modern collecting is virtually the polar opposite of your beliefs. By definition, nearly everyone who buys a box of cards is, whether they realize it or not, making an investment. Every single person hopes to get more out of the box value wise than they put into it, particularly if trading or selling. You want that big hit, that top prospect or anything with potential so that hopefully you can turn it into something bigger or better or maybe even better suited to your collecting needs.

Just because someone isnt capable of bettering their collection and ultimately adding value or making a profit by making the correct moves or having decent enough foresight does not mean it wasn't an investment. It just means it was a poor investment.

[scottbdoug]

When I buy tools, work clothes, meals, etc I get to write it all off as an investment into my business. Clothes will never truly net me a return but as my accountant has stated, being presentable in order to obtain work is a direct investment into my business and ultimately I can write it all off. ANY TIME A SHOP OWNER PURCHASES ANYTHING AT ALL, IT IS AN INVESTMENT. From top loaders to singles every move he makes is to insure customers return to do business in the future.

tools clothing etc is not an investment it is an expense and is treated as such when you file your taxes. that is the reason you get some of the money you spent on them.

When you take money to open a business you are investing. if it is your money, then you might not expect a return on it. if you are using other peoples money, then they will expect a return on it. what you are buying and selling is beside the point.

If I open a business with 50,000 dollars, that 50.000 dollars is an investment. Once I use that money then it becomes an expense or an asset. The use of the money isn't an investment the giving of the money to get a return later is the investment. so buying tools to use, or buying products to resell at a higher price is not an investment or investing. you confuse the definitions of your words. when i buy a card from you Im not investing with you, Im buying a product from you. Im not an investor Im a customer. You arent selling me an investment, you are selling me a card.

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In plain terms, to put money towards anything that you believe has potential to make you more money than you put in to it. You'll notice there's no time frame, no mention of handing money to a second party for he or she to invest and the last bit when it's stated that literally no actual money ever need change hands and that investing can come in the form of (belief of) appreciation in value, say if you invested in rare coins or... sports cards.

yes to put money towards something. money being the main point. investing is putting money towards getting a return that is higher that the money you put out. its as simple as that. the coins or anything else you buy isn't an investment, the money you put into buying the coins is the investment. the coins that you sell later isn't your return on investment, the actual money you get when you sell the coins is your return on investment (well to be precise the actual extra money above the amount of money you spent originally). just as every other investment is worth nothing until it is sold, (GIC, Stocks, Bonds, etc.), you invest with money, and you get money in return at a later date, hopefully more. it can get more complicated than that, but that is the basic. investing is not buying and selling although it can involve buying and selling, investing is giving to get a return later.

when a person invests in his business he is not buying or selling anything, he is putting money into his business, usually its for a year to get a return later. He conducts his business and he makes a profit or a loss. If he is incorporated the money he gives himself for his work is an expense and is calculated before a profit or loss is shown. His return on his investment is his profit or loss. If he is a sole-proprietor, then his profit or loss is his return on investment as well as his salary.

[Hofcollector]

tools clothing etc is not an investment it is an expense and is treated as such when you file your taxes. that is the reason you get some of the money you spent on them.

When you take money to open a business you are investing. if it is your money, then you might not expect a return on it. if you are using other peoples money, then they will expect a return on it. what you are buying and selling is beside the point.

If I open a business with 50,000 dollars, that 50.000 dollars is an investment. Once I use that money then it becomes an expense or an asset. The use of the money isn't an investment the giving of the money to get a return later is the investment. so buying tools to use, or buying products to resell at a higher price is not an investment or investing. you confuse the definitions of your words. when i buy a card from you Im not investing with you, Im buying a product from you. Im not an investor Im a customer. You arent selling me an investment, you are selling me a card.

Apparently Webster's dictionary and business owners alike have it wrong then. I don't know how much clearer that definition can be. So let me get this straight, if I buy tools required to do a job that would ultimately earn me profit, I'm not investing in my business? It's funny because that is the exact definition that the US government uses.

Any money you put into a business in the form of a purchase is an investment in the form of an expense, assuming you believe it has the potential to gain you a profit.

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tools clothing etc is not an investment it is an expense and is treated as such when you file your taxes. that is the reason you get some of the money you spent on them.

When you take money to open a business you are investing. if it is your money, then you might not expect a return on it. if you are using other peoples money, then they will expect a return on it. what you are buying and selling is beside the point.

If I open a business with 50,000 dollars, that 50.000 dollars is an investment. Once I use that money then it becomes an expense or an asset. The use of the money isn't an investment the giving of the money to get a return later is the investment. so buying tools to use, or buying products to resell at a higher price is not an investment or investing. you confuse the definitions of your words. when i buy a card from you Im not investing with you, Im buying a product from you. Im not an investor Im a customer. You arent selling me an investment, you are selling me a card.

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yes to put money towards something. money being the main point. investing is putting money towards getting a return that is higher that the money you put out. its as simple as that. the coins or anything else you buy isn't an investment, the money you put into buying the coins is the investment. the coins that you sell later isn't your return on investment, the actual money you get when you sell the coins is your return on investment (well to be precise the actual extra money above the amount of money you spent originally). just as every other investment is worth nothing until it is sold, (GIC, Stocks, Bonds, etc.), you invest with money, and you get money in return at a later date, hopefully more. it can get more complicated than that, but that is the basic. investing is not buying and selling although it can involve buying and selling, investing is giving to get a return later.

when a person invests in his business he is not buying or selling anything, he is putting money into his business, usually its for a year to get a return later. He conducts his business and he makes a profit or a loss. If he is incorporated the money he gives himself for his work is an expense and is calculated before a profit or loss is shown. His return on his investment is his profit or loss. If he is a sole-proprietor, then his profit or loss is his return on investment as well as his salary.

AAAAHHH! BUDDY... ZERO DOLLARS NEED EVER ENTER INTO THE EQUATION. YOU DON'T EVER ACTUALLY HAVE TO REALIZE AN ACTUAL PROFIT. YOU CAN INVEST SOLELY ON THE HOPES THAT SOMETHING WILL APPRECIATE IN VALUE.

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Problem #76 I have with your argument is that my great Uncle died a few years back. At his time of death he was an extremely wealthy man, although no one had a clue. When he and my grandfather got out of the war they both bought stock in what are now major corporations. My uncle continued to do so but no one ever knew because he lived a simple life. By your distorted view of investing my uncle a) was not actually wealthy and b) never actually invested because he never cashed in and no one ever handed him a pile of money.

An investment does not have to earn you a profit. There's these things called "bad investments" where you can actually lose money. An investment is ANY money put towards the BELIEF that a product, service or idea has the POTENTIAL to further your initial investment. This does NOT have to take cash form (ever) but instead may take form in interest, appreciate in value or accumulation of properties.

[scottbdoug]

Apparently Webster's dictionary and business owners alike have it wrong then. I don't know how much clearer that definition can be. So let me get this straight, if I buy tools required to do a job that would ultimately earn me profit, I'm not investing in my business? It's funny because that is the exact definition that the US government uses.

Any money you put into a business in the form of a purchase is an investment in the form of an expense, assuming you believe it has the potential to gain you a profit.

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AAAAHHH! BUDDY... ZERO DOLLARS NEED EVER ENTER INTO THE EQUATION. YOU DON'T EVER ACTUALLY HAVE TO REALIZE AN ACTUAL PROFIT. YOU CAN INVEST SOLELY ON THE HOPES THAT SOMETHING WILL APPRECIATE IN VALUE.

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Problem #76 I have with your argument is that my great Uncle died a few years back. At his time of death he was an extremely wealthy man, although no one had a clue. When he and my grandfather got out of the war they both bought stock in what are now major corporations. My uncle continued to do so but no one ever knew because he lived a simple life. By your distorted view of investing my uncle a) was not actually wealthy and b) never actually invested because he never cashed in and no one ever handed him a pile of money.

An investment does not have to earn you a profit. There's these things called "bad investments" where you can actually lose money. An investment is ANY money put towards the BELIEF that a product, service or idea has the POTENTIAL to further your initial investment. This does NOT have to take cash form (ever) but instead may take form in interest, appreciate in value or accumulation of properties.

ok so what i am doing is relating everything when i speak back to the original idea that when u sell sports cards on ebay you are selling investments. and because you are selling investments, not products, that the 30 day return policy is not fair because it allows people to speculate on your dime.

i am saying that when i buy a sports card on ebay im not buying an investment i am buying a product because i am a collector not a speculator because sports cards are not investments.

this is where we began to have a discussion on sports cards are investments or are not investments. doin more research because you made good points i have come to realize that you are right. a sports card can be considered an investment if it is purchased with the intention of selling it for a profit at a later date. which i assume is what you are speaking of, what your intention is when you buy sports cards.

now my intention when buying sports cards is not to sell them at a later date for profit, but to add them to my collection. so to me they aren't investments.

[Hofcollector]

ok so what i am doing is relating everything when i speak back to the original idea that when u sell sports cards on ebay you are selling investments. and because you are selling investments, not products, that the 30 day return policy is not fair because it allows people to speculate on your dime.

i am saying that when i buy a sports card on ebay im not buying an investment i am buying a product because i am a collector not a speculator because sports cards are not investments.

this is where we began to have a discussion on sports cards are investments or are not investments. doin more research because you made good points i have come to realize that you are right. a sports card can be considered an investment if it is purchased with the intention of selling it for a profit at a later date. which i assume is what you are speaking of, what your intention is when you buy sports cards.

now my intention when buying sports cards is not to sell them at a later date for profit, but to add them to my collection. so to me they aren't investments.

Fair enough. We got a little off track. I do appreciate a good debate though so well done. I hope you didn't take any offense to what I wrote because it wasn't my intention. It's hard to translate an honest conversation sometimes when you only have a computer screen as an intetpreter.