08-11-2012, 08:38 AM
08-11-2012, 01:28 PM
bigguy219, this has been a great thread and you've made me think about my collecting habits. Thank you. As a collector, I've always got that feeling that the market is going to crash again and my cards are going to be worthless. BUT, I must say as I get older I still enjoy collecting just common base cards of my favorite players instead of chasing the new hot rookies that sell for really high prices. So that thrill will always be there at least.
08-11-2012, 05:21 PM
First off, this is one of the best threads I have seen. Nice job, group.
If there is only one company allowed to sell official baseball cards, do you really think they are paying a lot for "relics"? It is not like there are many bidding wars beyond including private collectors. If nobody wants it, how carefully do you check it? Whose cards are we going to buy instead?
It is pretty scary that so many people do not trust our only current source of baseball cardboard.
JonathanI
If there is only one company allowed to sell official baseball cards, do you really think they are paying a lot for "relics"? It is not like there are many bidding wars beyond including private collectors. If nobody wants it, how carefully do you check it? Whose cards are we going to buy instead?
It is pretty scary that so many people do not trust our only current source of baseball cardboard.
JonathanI
08-11-2012, 05:32 PM
(08-11-2012, 05:21 PM)jonathani Wrote: [ -> ]First off, this is one of the best threads I have seen. Nice job, group.There are serious collectors who spend tens (and even hundreds) of thousands of dollars annually on memorabilia and signatures of legendary players.
If there is only one company allowed to sell official baseball cards, do you really think they are paying a lot for "relics"? It is not like there are many bidding wars beyond including private collectors. If nobody wants it, how carefully do you check it? Whose cards are we going to buy instead?
It is pretty scary that so many people do not trust our only current source of baseball cardboard.
JonathanI
Just check any major auction house's past results for prices realized on game used bats of Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, etc. with iron clad authenticity from Mears, PSA/DNA.
These bats have a numerical grade ranging from 'side writing' and 'factory records' present, to as vague as 'measures approrpriately'.
Of course there are higher dollars paid the better the provenance is, but the items with less provenance and evidence still sell.
If Topps (and the companies before them) were not sitting on the phones throwing out max bids against the whales in the hobby paying top dollar...
Were they buying bats with lesser authenticity? Were they buying jerseys and pants from "official MLB events" like Old Timers Days?
What were they doing? I don't know, because they won't tell me. They won't tell any of us?
Would it have killed them to say, "This Babe Ruth bat was obtained from Legendary Auctions and graded an A8 by Mears and dated to the years 1928-1931. The full letter of authenticity is available on our website."
If they were too 'cheap' to print a full LOA on the back of every card ... do you think they were paying top dollar for what went on the card?
You have to understand I was spending $10,000+ on relic and cut signature cards of pre-war legends towards the end.
It was just getting too murky, too vague, and indictments and arrests were going down left and right.
I did not want to be the one without a chair when the music stops.
08-11-2012, 06:40 PM
(08-11-2012, 05:21 PM)jonathani Wrote: [ -> ]First off, this is one of the best threads I have seen. Nice job, group.*All* manufacturers over the past decade or so have had issues with relics...every one. Not that any of this matters at all given how people fake the relics in game used cards anyway, especially patches.
If there is only one company allowed to sell official baseball cards, do you really think they are paying a lot for "relics"? It is not like there are many bidding wars beyond including private collectors. If nobody wants it, how carefully do you check it? Whose cards are we going to buy instead?
It is pretty scary that so many people do not trust our only current source of baseball cardboard.
JonathanI
If someone wants a relic they're better off buying full memorabilia and not buying cards to begin with.
08-11-2012, 07:15 PM
I think it's kinda sad that you're completely giving up modern cards. To me the heart of collecting is centered around the game itself, "baseball." Vintage represents only the past, the stars and hall of famers of years ago. I guess if you're a baseball history enthusiast and love only baseball's past then it makes sense. But I'm as old as you are and never saw any of those guys play.
Prospecting represents the future of baseball. Finding the players of the modern era who may become the legends of the future. Of course prospecting is full of hype causing inflated prices on guys that will never live up to that hype. That's why I try to limit myself on prospecting and only collect prospects of my favorite teams plus maybe a few more.
I guess what I'm saying is that I'd rather have a card of a guy in my lifetime who was a MVP, Cy Young award winner, World Series Ace etc then one years before I was born.
Great thread btw and Good luck with your pre-modern collection!
Prospecting represents the future of baseball. Finding the players of the modern era who may become the legends of the future. Of course prospecting is full of hype causing inflated prices on guys that will never live up to that hype. That's why I try to limit myself on prospecting and only collect prospects of my favorite teams plus maybe a few more.
I guess what I'm saying is that I'd rather have a card of a guy in my lifetime who was a MVP, Cy Young award winner, World Series Ace etc then one years before I was born.
Great thread btw and Good luck with your pre-modern collection!
08-26-2012, 12:25 AM
For those of you who were interested in the topic of authenticity of game used relics, I have a brief follow up.
MEARS is currently auctioning several game used bats. I don't think it violates the TOS to post this, as it is not eBay, and there is a section for non-eBay auctions.
I encourage you to read the auction item descriptions. Some are A10, which means they have factory records of the player ordening the specific bat, and sometimes even period notations on the bat indicating use by the player.
Then you have bats that are A9, A8, A7, etc. Each of these having deductions for various potential obstacles to being able to say with 100% certainty that the player used this bat.
Then you have simply 'Authentic' bats that fit the general characteristics of a player's bat.
Of course the grade plays a huge factor in the final price.
If you were interested in my calling into question the relics used by card manufacturers on their HOF relics, please do some research here.
Ask yourself, what is the minimum authenticity grade you would accept in your own collection if you were buying the bat? Then, ask yourself, would a corporation focused mostly on their bottom line hold such a high standard?
Anyway. Fascinating subject, and hope that it might educate some of you who have purchased memorabilia cards, but not actual memorabilia.
MEARS is currently auctioning several game used bats. I don't think it violates the TOS to post this, as it is not eBay, and there is a section for non-eBay auctions.
I encourage you to read the auction item descriptions. Some are A10, which means they have factory records of the player ordening the specific bat, and sometimes even period notations on the bat indicating use by the player.
Then you have bats that are A9, A8, A7, etc. Each of these having deductions for various potential obstacles to being able to say with 100% certainty that the player used this bat.
Then you have simply 'Authentic' bats that fit the general characteristics of a player's bat.
Of course the grade plays a huge factor in the final price.
If you were interested in my calling into question the relics used by card manufacturers on their HOF relics, please do some research here.
Ask yourself, what is the minimum authenticity grade you would accept in your own collection if you were buying the bat? Then, ask yourself, would a corporation focused mostly on their bottom line hold such a high standard?
Anyway. Fascinating subject, and hope that it might educate some of you who have purchased memorabilia cards, but not actual memorabilia.
08-26-2012, 06:16 AM
Amazing Post and Great Reading!
I enjoyed all the Pro and Con aspects of this thread....
The bottom line (in my opinion) is "Collect what you Enjoy".....
I happen to mostly agree with the topic, I enjoy vintage far more then modern collecting. It is simpler to have "one rookie card" and a finite amount to collect...
(here is an example of why I am fed up with modern collecting)
I was lucky enough to pull a 2012 Topps Tribute 1/1 Purple auto... Imagine my surprise when I looked on this site only to find there were three different versions of the Purple 1/1 auto..
Turns out there were variations for each print run... That is absurd.
And that does not even touch on licensing etc...
I feel 1985 was the last good year for card collecting.... (alas, I am that old..)
On another note about "Budget"....
I have found vintage to be much cheaper then modern collecting...
For the price of one pack of average cards with guaranteed auto (the staple of modern collecting).
I would guess the average retail price is between 50-75 dollars. Then more then likely you are getting a card that is shall we say... Not what you are looking for...75 dollars at the LCS on vintage singles though, you know what you are getting and it goes a long way...
For the price of hot players like Darvish, Harper & Trout... You can buy amazing vintage from just about anybody...(Mantle, Mays etc....) Granted maybe not a rookie, but set realistic standards and vintage is within any budget of somebody that invests in modern cards..
I enjoyed all the Pro and Con aspects of this thread....
The bottom line (in my opinion) is "Collect what you Enjoy".....
I happen to mostly agree with the topic, I enjoy vintage far more then modern collecting. It is simpler to have "one rookie card" and a finite amount to collect...
(here is an example of why I am fed up with modern collecting)
I was lucky enough to pull a 2012 Topps Tribute 1/1 Purple auto... Imagine my surprise when I looked on this site only to find there were three different versions of the Purple 1/1 auto..
Turns out there were variations for each print run... That is absurd.
And that does not even touch on licensing etc...
I feel 1985 was the last good year for card collecting.... (alas, I am that old..)
On another note about "Budget"....
I have found vintage to be much cheaper then modern collecting...
For the price of one pack of average cards with guaranteed auto (the staple of modern collecting).
I would guess the average retail price is between 50-75 dollars. Then more then likely you are getting a card that is shall we say... Not what you are looking for...75 dollars at the LCS on vintage singles though, you know what you are getting and it goes a long way...
For the price of hot players like Darvish, Harper & Trout... You can buy amazing vintage from just about anybody...(Mantle, Mays etc....) Granted maybe not a rookie, but set realistic standards and vintage is within any budget of somebody that invests in modern cards..
08-26-2012, 09:18 AM
(08-26-2012, 06:16 AM)osujeffrey Wrote: [ -> ]Amazing Post and Great Reading!Boy, I couldnt agree more with your last staement! When I see what people are paying for the big 3 youve listed, all I can think of is if I was going to shell out that much it would be on a really nice vintage HOF card!!
I enjoyed all the Pro and Con aspects of this thread....
The bottom line (in my opinion) is "Collect what you Enjoy".....
I happen to mostly agree with the topic, I enjoy vintage far more then modern collecting. It is simpler to have "one rookie card" and a finite amount to collect...
(here is an example of why I am fed up with modern collecting)
I was lucky enough to pull a 2012 Topps Tribute 1/1 Purple auto... Imagine my surprise when I looked on this site only to find there were three different versions of the Purple 1/1 auto..
Turns out there were variations for each print run... That is absurd.
And that does not even touch on licensing etc...
I feel 1985 was the last good year for card collecting.... (alas, I am that old..)
On another note about "Budget"....
I have found vintage to be much cheaper then modern collecting...
For the price of one pack of average cards with guaranteed auto (the staple of modern collecting).
I would guess the average retail price is between 50-75 dollars. Then more then likely you are getting a card that is shall we say... Not what you are looking for...75 dollars at the LCS on vintage singles though, you know what you are getting and it goes a long way...
For the price of hot players like Darvish, Harper & Trout... You can buy amazing vintage from just about anybody...(Mantle, Mays etc....) Granted maybe not a rookie, but set realistic standards and vintage is within any budget of somebody that invests in modern cards..
08-26-2012, 11:02 AM
I have been VERY cautious with the relic cards I've been buying. I read the back very carefully and examine the precise wording that comes on the statement of authenticity on these cards.
Topps is not the only culprit though.....I've bought Upper Deck cards that I've turned over and read "the memorabilia on this card has been certified to having been used in a baseball game."
Now I'm no legal genius, but when I read that, it appears to me that Upper Deck could have easily went and bought my little brothers jersey from his little league team and cut it up and slapped Chipper Jones' picture on it and stuck it into packs. That statement offers NO evidence or guarantee that the piece of material in that card came from Chipper Jones, or any major league player, minor league player, semi-pro player, church baseball league player, or someone playing baseball on their Nintendo Wii for that matter. It's INTENTIONALLY vague, and it's sad that they question our intelligence in this way (though in their defense, they are succeeding because they're still selling like hotcakes).
I also heard someone mention prospecting.....which I find to be a big joke. These guys are out there paying $500 or even thousands of dollars on unproven minor league players that happen to be on a card with a pretty colored border and have a serial number on them. For $500 I'd rather buy something of a player who has already made it and has proven themselves. For $500, I could have something nice of Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, etc. For the price I can buy a Bubba Starling auto, I can have a vintage Hank Aaron card. It's just a joke to me.
Also, if anyone is looking to make the jump to vintage, don't let yourself think that those cards are out of your budget. You may not be able to afford a T206 Cobb or a Goudey Ruth, but if you look into something like 1947-66 Exhibits or even the early Bowman sets, you can have something nice in your price range. I've been buying T206's for the price I could have dropped on a blaster box at WalMart and gotten a shiny prospect card. I'm a COLLEGE STUDENT with a tight budget, and I'm making strong progress on a 1952 Bowman Set. You can have a Mickey Mantle from the Exhibit set for the price of that hobby box you busted and pulled a Adam Lind relic card. Vintage is easily affordable.
Topps is not the only culprit though.....I've bought Upper Deck cards that I've turned over and read "the memorabilia on this card has been certified to having been used in a baseball game."
Now I'm no legal genius, but when I read that, it appears to me that Upper Deck could have easily went and bought my little brothers jersey from his little league team and cut it up and slapped Chipper Jones' picture on it and stuck it into packs. That statement offers NO evidence or guarantee that the piece of material in that card came from Chipper Jones, or any major league player, minor league player, semi-pro player, church baseball league player, or someone playing baseball on their Nintendo Wii for that matter. It's INTENTIONALLY vague, and it's sad that they question our intelligence in this way (though in their defense, they are succeeding because they're still selling like hotcakes).
I also heard someone mention prospecting.....which I find to be a big joke. These guys are out there paying $500 or even thousands of dollars on unproven minor league players that happen to be on a card with a pretty colored border and have a serial number on them. For $500 I'd rather buy something of a player who has already made it and has proven themselves. For $500, I could have something nice of Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, etc. For the price I can buy a Bubba Starling auto, I can have a vintage Hank Aaron card. It's just a joke to me.
Also, if anyone is looking to make the jump to vintage, don't let yourself think that those cards are out of your budget. You may not be able to afford a T206 Cobb or a Goudey Ruth, but if you look into something like 1947-66 Exhibits or even the early Bowman sets, you can have something nice in your price range. I've been buying T206's for the price I could have dropped on a blaster box at WalMart and gotten a shiny prospect card. I'm a COLLEGE STUDENT with a tight budget, and I'm making strong progress on a 1952 Bowman Set. You can have a Mickey Mantle from the Exhibit set for the price of that hobby box you busted and pulled a Adam Lind relic card. Vintage is easily affordable.