[zeprock]

I'm not aware of the circumstances, but McGriff was 7 away from the 500 club and THAT almost gives you a Hall pass why did he retire before getting a crack at another 7 HR chances on some last place team. Pinch hitter/DH for a season? Was he injured and could no longer swing a bat?

No one would sign him. Shame because I think he is Hall worthy too. Those Braves teams during the 90s were great and not just because of the pitching. Along with Chipper and Andruw, McGriff had a lot to do with all that winning.

[madamson]

In no particular order of preference, but I strongly feel these players should be in the HOF (and I know I'm missing some):

1 - Roger Maris
2 - Jim Kaat
3 - Tony Oliva
4 - Fred McGriff
5 - Don Mattingly
6 - Pete Rose

I know I'm forgetting some but these are just off the top of my head.

[jason32rich]

I agree with the McGriff argument.

Gil Hodges always comes to mind for me, an 8 time all-star who was in the middle of all of those great Brooklyn teams. He won three gold gloves at the end of his career and would probably have won a lot more had the award existed earlier. If I'm not mistaken at the time of his retirement he had more homeruns than any other right handed National League batter in history. 30 or more homeruns 6 times, 100 or more rbi's 7 times and managed one of the most historic world series teams in the 69 Mets. He statistically falls short of a lot of modern players but still a good candidate in my opinion.

I vote no on Pete Rose. It's not like he's been removed from history or the record books. Baseball isn't asking him to return the fortune he accumulated by playing baseball. He's enjoyed plenty of fame and will always be considered one of the best to ever play the game. No one is denying him that. When your actions call into question the integrity of the entire league and you basically give baseball the middle finger for your own personal gain you don't deserve to be honored as one of the greatest contributors to the sport. He knew what he was doing and MLB called his bluff.

Great thread Doc!

[soey10]

I also agree that Pete Rose should be in the Hall along with the PED users of the 90's. Baseball was benefiting from all the revenue brought in from McGwire and Sosa (who both looked like WWF wrestlers) but didn't bring up the suspicion until after all of the money came rolling in. I also think Mattingly, McGriff and Steve Garvey should be in.

[scottbdoug]

Personally speaking I think more than half of the players in the Hall should never had made it. Only the best player at his position for his generation in his league should make it. For pitchers the top 10 pitchers of their generation. Give or take here or there for players who are very close to each other ie they both are great and can be considered the best at their position for their generation. Then quite a few dont make the Hall.

Or, to take it in another way, its the guys that when you mention their name you automatically say of course he should be in, it a given, a no-brainer. Those are the guys that go in in my opinion. The ones that an argument can be made by a reasonable person that they shouldnt go in then they shouldnt go in.

No brainers....

Ken Griffey Jr.
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Frank Thomas
Barry Larkin
Roberto Alomar
Rickey Henderson
Tony Gwynn
Cal Ripken
Wade Boggs
Gary Carter

These are the names since 2000 that were the best at their positions that are in the Hall. I may have missed here or there but I think I got most of them.

[DrMitchJ]

In no particular order of preference, but I strongly feel these players should be in the HOF (and I know I'm missing some):

1 - Roger Maris
2 - Jim Kaat
3 - Tony Oliva
4 - Fred McGriff
5 - Don Mattingly
6 - Pete Rose

I know I'm forgetting some but these are just off the top of my head.

No arguments from me. All great choices and mostly more worthy than some that have their plaques already in the Hall. (Kaat is just shy of 300 wins, right?)

---

I agree with the McGriff argument.

Gil Hodges always comes to mind for me, an 8 time all-star who was in the middle of all of those great Brooklyn teams. He won three gold gloves at the end of his career and would probably have won a lot more had the award existed earlier. If I'm not mistaken at the time of his retirement he had more homeruns than any other right handed National League batter in history. 30 or more homeruns 6 times, 100 or more rbi's 7 times and managed one of the most historic world series teams in the 69 Mets. He statistically falls short of a lot of modern players but still a good candidate in my opinion.

I vote no on Pete Rose. It's not like he's been removed from history or the record books. Baseball isn't asking him to return the fortune he accumulated by playing baseball. He's enjoyed plenty of fame and will always be considered one of the best to ever play the game. No one is denying him that. When your actions call into question the integrity of the entire league and you basically give baseball the middle finger for your own personal gain you don't deserve to be honored as one of the greatest contributors to the sport. He knew what he was doing and MLB called his bluff.

Great thread Doc!

Thanks Jason (after 5000+ posts, it's about to happen eventually )

Valid points about Rose, but after seeing him during the post season, I just fell in love with the guy. He's just a big, goofy baseball fan with a gambling addiction. We were able to forgive and forget worse things ... I can honestly say, he never played without giving 110% ... I want to see his induction speech. It'll will probably be unique.

I really like your Gil Hodges plea. He was such a pivotal player for the Brooklyn Dodgers. Had he lived longer, I'm sure he'd have at least made it into the Hall as a Manager. He died relatively young ... Too young to put up Tony LaRussa / Joe Torre numbers!

[Phillies_Joe]

DrM....great thread. Reading through this to this point really got me thinking (which is pretty hard....and dangerous). The thing that makes the BB HOF what it is compared to say the football HOF where everyone and their mother gets voted in, is that it is exclusive, where only the best of the best get voted in based on their actual body of work (integrity and character.....ha....1/2 the folks in wouldn't be if it were fully enforced).

I do not think because your career was cut short, you should get special consideration for the HOF. We can always do mathematical calculations estimating where a player may have ended up. The HOF to me is recognition based on your actual accomplishments over a span of (estimate) 15 years, not 7-8. My favorite pitcher (and probably my 2nd favorite baseball player) of all time, Sandy K, IMHO, shouldn't be in the Hall. He was great for 6 years but that was it. I too really liked Munson, and though tragic, his death doesn't qualify him for the hall. Just my opinion, no injury or hurt feelings intended.

Like DJ pointed out, Pete Rose banned himself with the agreement. Do his records say he belongs, yes, but it is what it is.

Peds....I don't care one way or the other. I'm not the morality police and since baseball turned a blind eye to players who bulked up 20-25 lbs over one off-season and did nothing, I blame them and not the players. Did players "cheat", yes. Have players always "cheated" yes, in one form or another.

Players I think have been seriously snubbed by the writers:
1. Lee Smith (played on to many different teams ?)
2. Gil Hodges - great points jason - except the Mets thing - he wasn't a great manager
3. Richie (Dick) Allen


And Doc....like the song from Frozen.....let it go, let it go (your Bill M. issues....come on man, that homer was from 56 years ago...LOL)

[DrMitchJ]

DrM....great thread.
My favorite pitcher (and probably my 2nd favorite baseball player) of all time, Sandy K, IMHO, shouldn't be in the Hall. He was great for 6 years but that was it. I too really liked Munson, and though tragic, his death doesn't qualify him for the hall. Just my opinion, no injury or hurt feelings intended.

Players I think have been seriously snubbed by the writers:
1. Lee Smith (played on to many different teams ?)
2. Gil Hodges - great points jason - except the Mets thing - he wasn't a great manager
3. Richie (Dick) Allen

And Doc....like the song from Frozen.....let it go, let it go (your Bill M. issues....come on man, that homer was from 56 years ago...LOL)

Thanks, Joe.
Koufax wasn't great for 6 years ... He was dominant for 6 years. He was the most feared opponent for 6 years. I think The Hall is better with him than without.
As far as Munson goes, from 1971-1979 he was probably the Top AL catcher, only surpassed by Johnny Bench in the NL. No hard feelings whether you agree or disagree with my Munson plea ... That's what makes a healthy discussion.

Give me more Dick Allen background for his hall-worthiness, please.

As much as ive tried, I can't 'Let it Go!'
Mazeroski is to me what Aaron Boone and Bucky Dent are to Red Sox fans. (Famous / infamous) Memorable events? Sure. Hall Worthiness? Certainly not!
(And I wasn't even cognizant when that Mazeroski HR occurred)

[zeprock]

I think Mazeroski was voted in by the Veterans Committee more for his defense. It certainly wasn't his offense. He was a 7-time All-Star who won 8 Gold Gloves and was a member of two World Championship teams.

[jason32rich]

Fun discussion guys.

I think Mazeroski was widely considered to be the greatest defensive 2nd baseman in the game (up until Alomar probably) so that has to account for something. He's kind of an Ozzie Smith type candidate, a tremendous defender who was light hitting and both had signature playoff moments.

Like Zep said a 7x all-star (10 if you count the years that they played two games) with 8 gold gloves is nothing to snub your nose at and 2,000 hits in an era where zero offense was expected out of the middle infielders is also pretty good.

The thing about Koufax is that he wasn't just great for that 7 year prime, he was doing things that had never been done by a pitcher in the history of baseball. In that time span he won 3 pitching triple crowns, 3 cy young awards, 1 MVP, set the all time record for K's in a season and the all time record for career no-hitters. If Don Mattingly (or any of the various short career players) had won 3 MVP's, 3 triple crowns, hit .400 in a season and set the all time record for hits in a season he would also be a shoe in for the hall of fame, which is roughly equivalent to what Koufax did.