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+--- Thread: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed (/thread-1605415.html)
Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - DrMitchJ - 12-26-2016
On a recent thread, I started to diverge and didn't want to continue a possible discussion disruption.
When discussing the current eligible players, we started talking about those that were snubbed.
I stated my case for Thurman Munson, Vada Pinson and Tony Oliva.
There are so many others ...
So why not Munson? Compare his career shortened stats to Bench & Fisk. Bench & Fisk had undeniably great careers and were definitely Hall worthy, but why not Munson? Statistically he could have batted the same or better if he had another 5-10 years in MLB. He easily would have surpassed 2000 hits if not actually achieving 3000 hits if converted to a 1st base/DH later in his career. Defensively, he was as good as either HOF catcher.
So why not Vada Pinson? Roberto Alomar is in with 2700+ hits batted .300
Vada has 2700+ hits and .290 BA ... Comparing a second baseman to an outfielder might not be fair, but Vada was a great Ballplayer.
Lou Boudreux had 1 great year in his career. He was the batting champion that year. Tony Oliva did that 3X and lead the league in hits 5 years. What about Tony?
Bill Mazeroski had 1 memorable WS HR. He had a good solid career, but nothing else really stands out. Just barely over 2K hits in 17 years, BA .260 ... He's in the Hall while Thurman, Vada and Tony O aren't? What's up with THAT?
And finally ... I don't care what he did ... But Pete Rose is the most deserving and most snubbed of any player on the planet. I was never a big Pete Rose fan as a kid growing up, but looking back over the years ... What a tremendous player, what a career, and compared to some guys that are already there, lets just say, Pete's a choirboy compared to some.
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - aprirr - 12-26-2016
(12-26-2016, 12:12 PM)DrMitchJ Wrote: But Pete Rose is the most deserving and most snubbed of any player on the planet.
I couldn't agree with this more. When people play the "betting on baseball is a death sentence" card, I would invite them to look up the Dutch Leonard affair of 1919 involving betting and game fixing by Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker, among others. A fascinating series of events that shows the lack of consistency by the Commissioner at the time of the Black Sox scandal.
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - zeprock - 12-26-2016
As a collector of HOF players and constantly trying to get the bulk of their affordable cards prior to induction, I have a lot of players I think should be considered but understand why they are not.
Pete Rose? A Hall of Fame player but he KNEW he wouldn't get in if he got caught betting on baseball. He broke the rules. Nobody broke the rules for him. Some will argue that he was betting on his team to win but what did that say to the bookies on the days that he didn't bet on his team to win? I see why he is outside looking in. All that being said, I would still enshrine him right along with Shoeless Joe Jackson.
Munson? Hallworthy in my book and I'm a Red Sox fan. Doc's argument is what if he hadn't had his career cut short? Should we penalize a player for having a short career that ended prematurely due to circumstances beyond the player's control? If not then you have to consider Tony Conigliaro or Bo Jackson or even Don Mattingly. Bo was probably the greatest "athlete" to ever play the game and had he not played football on the side, he may have had a Hall of Fame career. He didn't.
What about Roger Maris? Four time All-Star, 3 World Championships, a Gold Glove and two MVP awards. He led his league in RBIs twice and we all know about the 61 home run season. Just not enough cumulative stats.
People don't want the PED guys in. They lack character and integrity. They wanted their team to win so bad that they did what they thought would make them the best that they could be. Many of them were the best of their era. It's not the Hall of Character or the Hall of Integrity. It's the Hall of FAME. They were famous.
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - oneofakindcards - 12-26-2016
Rose broke rule #1: never bet on baseball.
Generally speaking, those who don't think Rose should be banned simply don't understand what baseball was like before Kennesaw Mountain Landis cleaned up the game... his gambling overshadows all he did on the field. 'nuff said.
(12-26-2016, 05:41 PM)zeprock Wrote: People don't want the PED guys in. They lack character and integrity. They wanted their team to win so bad that they did what they thought would make them the best that they could be. Many of them were the best of their era. It's not the Hall of Character or the Hall of Integrity. It's the Hall of FAME. They were famous.
Character and integrity ARE requisites for entry into the HOF. If fame were the only requisite then the guys you discussed like Bo Jackson and even Nomar Garciappara would already be in
Nobody really thinks these guys took PEDs for their teams, they took PEDs for themselves - being selfish as these guys were means they weren't team players at all. They ain't HOF-worthy!
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - DrMitchJ - 12-26-2016
(12-26-2016, 05:41 PM)zeprock Wrote: What about Roger Maris? Four time All-Star, 3 World Championships, a Gold Glove and two MVP awards. He led his league in RBIs twice and we all know about the 61 home run season. Just not enough cumulative stats.
Maris' stats are better than Bill Mazeroski's although they both batted .260 ... Roger was MVP twice ... and Roger broke Babe's HR record while Mazeroski won a WS with a walk off HR. Who's more worthy? ... Maris wins hands down over HOF'er Mazeroski, IMO. Why NOT Maris?
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - djohn - 12-26-2016
(12-26-2016, 05:41 PM)zeprock Wrote: Pete Rose? A Hall of Fame player but he KNEW he wouldn't get in if he got caught betting on baseball.If I remember correctly, it was actually a "plea deal" for Pete Rose that got him banned from baseball. He made the deal with the commissioner that he would accept being banned if MLB didn't turn over their findings to the federal government. He and the commissioner knew that if everything came out then it would be a black eye on baseball and possible jail time for Pete Rose. Thus he ACCEPTED the ban in lieu of a more serious sentence and public thrashing.
While I agree that he should be in the Hall due to his achievements on the field, he made the choice to accept being banned. So while I would personally like to see him in the HOF, I can completely understand why he isn't getting in.
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - madamson - 12-27-2016
But just because he's banned from baseball, doesn't mean that he can't get elected, correct? It's just that the HOF has chosen not to put him on the ballot. MLB has zero jurisdiction on whether or not someone can or cannot be put on the ballot. It's up to the discretion of the HOF.
(12-26-2016, 10:49 PM)djohn Wrote: If I remember correctly, it was actually a "plea deal" for Pete Rose that got him banned from baseball. He made the deal with the commissioner that he would accept being banned if MLB didn't turn over their findings to the federal government. He and the commissioner knew that if everything came out then it would be a black eye on baseball and possible jail time for Pete Rose. Thus he ACCEPTED the ban in lieu of a more serious sentence and public thrashing.
While I agree that he should be in the Hall due to his achievements on the field, he made the choice to accept being banned. So while I would personally like to see him in the HOF, I can completely understand why he isn't getting in.
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - DrMitchJ - 12-27-2016
(12-26-2016, 05:09 PM)aprirr Wrote: I couldn't agree with this more. When people play the "betting on baseball is a death sentence" card, I would invite them to look up the Dutch Leonard affair of 1919 involving betting and game fixing by Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker, among others. A fascinating series of events that shows the lack of consistency by the Commissioner at the time of the Black Sox scandal.
Interesting stuff, Aaron. Thanks.
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - buckles2335 - 12-27-2016
Fred McGriff needs to be in.
Hits 2490 Homeruns 493 Ba.284 Obs.377 Slug.509
All in the juice era with zero implications.
RE: Who should be in The Hall .., making a case for those snubbed - DrMitchJ - 12-27-2016
(12-27-2016, 12:05 AM)madamson Wrote: But just because he's banned from baseball, doesn't mean that he can't get elected, correct? It's just that the HOF has chosen not to put him on the ballot. MLB has zero jurisdiction on whether or not someone can or cannot be put on the ballot. It's up to the discretion of the HOF.
Banned from baseball vs. banned from the Hall. Is it the same?
At some point in time, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were banned from baseball because they were 'greeters' at a Casino and that affiliation wasn't permitted. I'm not sure if that happened before or after their induction to the HOF. Eventually, their ban was lifted. Bans can be lifted and rules can be changed based on situations.
If I remember correctly, Pete was 'banned for life' ... Which as far as my novice legal mind figures, that after he's dead, 'The Ban' is lifted ... So why not just let Pete into the HOF? If he committed a crime, I think he did his 'sentence' as Time Served, consider him 'rehabilitated' and give him back his dignity. He's probably the most worthy of all living eligible ballplayers.
(12-27-2016, 12:22 AM)buckles2335 Wrote: Fred McGriff needs to be in.
Hits 2490 Homeruns 493 Ba.284 Obs.377 Slug.509
All in the juice era with zero implications.
Mattingly finished his career with 2,153 hits, 222 home runs, 1,099 RBI, and a .307 lifetime average. All in the juice era with zero implications, too.
I'm not sure why both of these first basemen aren't there.
I'm not aware of the circumstances, but McGriff was 7 away from the 500 club and THAT almost gives you a Hall pass
why did he retire before getting a crack at another 7 HR chances on some last place team. Pinch hitter/DH for a season? Was he injured and could no longer swing a bat?