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(05-19-2012, 08:32 PM)azicet Wrote: [ -> ]The other 99.99999999999% of collectors will appreciate not getting them as 1 of their main "pulls" in a $100+ product.

If the card companies simply focused on only having autographed rookie cards for the top 15-20 prospects, (and by this time late in the season, you pretty much know who they are), it'd make for a much better product.
i for one would do not agree simply because there are collectors that collect rc cards of guys that are not superstars. the card companies
know this, the best system out there is ice with there tier system.
and keep in mind your $100 a box product wouldnt be anymore
it would be cheaper and considered lower end as hits would fall less frequent. hence the NEED to include the signatures of the majority of rc's.how would you guarantee 3 auto's and 1 being a future watch out
of a limited pool of 20 players. the math does'nt jive.
i get what your saying "if i pull an auto rc, i want it to be of a top 20 "
would'nt we all? yes but at what cost? buy a case to get that one auto of a top20 rc?
(05-20-2012, 08:47 AM)705-janveaux Wrote: [ -> ]i for one would do not agree simply because there are collectors that collect rc cards of guys that are not superstars. the card companies
know this, the best system out there is ice with there tier system.
and keep in mind your $100 a box product wouldnt be anymore
it would be cheaper and considered lower end as hits would fall less frequent. hence the NEED to include the signatures of the majority of rc's.how would you guarantee 3 auto's and 1 being a future watch out
of a limited pool of 20 players. the math does'nt jive.
i get what your saying "if i pull an auto rc, i want it to be of a top 20 "
would'nt we all? yes but at what cost? buy a case to get that one auto of a top20 rc?
I agree with a tier system as the lesser guys should not have serial numbered autographed rookie cards. However, just include more "hits" of the top 20 rookies, as well as more hits of the established "stars". Most people would be happier pulling a Malkin SOTT or a Landeskog SOTT regular autographed card, (doesn't even have to be a rookie card), than pulling a Paul Postma or Erik Gustafsson autographed serially numbered rookie.

I'm not saying don't put guys like Postma or Gustafsson in products. I'm saying don't put them in "high end" or even "mid end" as 1 of the "hits".
(05-20-2012, 04:55 PM)azicet Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with a tier system as the lesser guys should not have serial numbered autographed rookie cards. However, just include more "hits" of the top 20 rookies, as well as more hits of the established "stars". Most people would be happier pulling a Malkin SOTT or a Landeskog SOTT regular autographed card, (doesn't even have to be a rookie card), than pulling a Paul Postma or Erik Gustafsson autographed serially numbered rookie.

I'm not saying don't put guys like Postma or Gustafsson in products. I'm saying don't put them in "high end" or even "mid end" as 1 of the "hits".
but what about guys that only collect postma or gustafsson, are they not entitled to have a high end cards of their fav rc? your talking about trimming the fat and diluting the star pool. it'll never happen and if it does watch the product lose value and interest.
(05-20-2012, 05:23 PM)705-janveaux Wrote: [ -> ]but what about guys that only collect postma or gustafsson, are they not entitled to have a high end cards of their fav rc? your talking about trimming the fat and diluting the star pool. it'll never happen and if it does watch the product lose value and interest.
I'm not diluting the star pool. I hardly think most collectors consider players like Paul Postma, Nick Johnson & Erik Gustafsson "star" prospects. I think adding more autographed cards of players like Malkin & Lundqvist in place of autographed rookie cards of those players would enhance the product, giving it more value, not less.

As for the Postma or Gustafsson collector, you're talking about a very, very, very small percentage of collectors. You'd be appeasing 1,000 collectors at the expense of 49,000 who'd be aggravated getting their autographed rookie cards as one of their hits.
(05-20-2012, 08:59 PM)azicet Wrote: [ -> ]I think adding more autographed cards of players like Malkin & Lundqvist in place of autographed rookie cards of those players would enhance the product, giving it more value, not less.
again your diluting the market with even more pointless autos but of stars..therefor making them worth less after the chips fall. im not arguing the fact it is annoying when you buy a box and you get a postma case hit but thats collecting, you either deal with it or buy
the players you collect, simply as that.




(05-20-2012, 09:12 PM)705-janveaux Wrote: [ -> ]again your diluting the market with even more pointless autos but of stars..therefor making them worth less after the chips fall. im not arguing the fact it is annoying when you buy a box and you get a postma case hit but thats collecting, you either deal with it or buy
the players you collect, simply as that.
Why should we have to just deal with it & let the card companies every year give us unwanted & unneeded autographed rookie cards of players most of us don't care about? Why not ask them to include more "quality names" as hits?

There will ALWAYS be value in players like Lemieux, Roy, Brodeur, Lidstrom, etc., not matter how many things they sign now or how many they've signed in the past. That's why players like Gordie Howe still charge $100 & up at a card show & still have huge lines, even though they've been doing it for years. That's why certified autographed cards of these players still sell and have interest.

Yes, more autographs of Messier, Sakic, Yzerman, etc. will dilute their value, but not as much as you think, and would actually generate more interest in them as more collectors would be able to afford them. Any autographs of these players are not pointless & would actually be appreciated more than a no-name rookie signed serially numbered RC.

Given the choice between pulling a Gordie Howe basic SOTT auto or a Calvin de Haan serially numbered autographed rookie with a piece of his jersey, this Islanders fan will always prefer the Howe.
(05-20-2012, 10:55 PM)azicet Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, more autographs of Messier, Sakic, Yzerman, etc. will dilute their value, but not as much as you think, and would actually generate more interest in them as more collectors would be able to afford them. Any autographs of these players are not pointless & would actually be appreciated more than a no-name rookie signed serially numbered RC.

Given the choice between pulling a Gordie Howe basic SOTT auto or a Calvin de Haan serially numbered autographed rookie with a piece of his jersey, this Islanders fan will always prefer the Howe.
•Awesome Autograph Lineup (combining to hit 3 per box, on avg!) •Autographed Future Watch – #’d to 999
•Sign of the Times
•Sign of the Times Duals – inserted 1:288
•Sign of the Times Trios – #’d to 25
•Sign of the Times Quads – #’d to 10
•Sign of the Times Fives – #’d to 8
•Sign of the Times Sixes – #’d to 7
•Sign of the Times Sevens – #’d to 6
•Sign of the Times Eights – #’d to 5
•Prestigious Pairings – #’d to 50
•SP Chirography – #’d to 50
•Immortal Inks – #’d to 10
•Marks of Distinction – #’d to 25
•Autographed Patch cards •Autographed Future Watch Patch – #’d to 100
•Regular Card Limited Autograph Patch Parallel, Level 1 – #’d to 100
•Regular Card Limited Autograph Patch Parallel, Level 2 – #’d to 25
•Slick Holograms •SP Holo F/X – inserted 1:12
•SP Holo F/X – Die-Cut – inserted 1:288
•Collect More ’10-11 Rookies! •Future Watch – #’d to 999
•Essential Subset •SP Essentials – #’d to 1999
•Regular Cards •100 Regular Cards



heres the print run layout, now take away your suggested unwanted rc autos which is 30 of the only 50 chosen,so thats 30x999=29970 rookie auto's not included in the set run now, exclude the patch variation which is 30x99 =2970 (case hits). now just rookies alone what you've suggested is over 30,000 hit short fall. make it up with the top 20 rookies and the HOF'ers. Sure but look at what the print run would look like for rookies without touching the HOF'ers subsets.

•Autographed Patch cards •Autographed Future Watch Patch – #’d to 999 value drop of 90%
•Regular Card Limited Autograph Patch Parallel, Level 2 – #’d to 99-value drop 75%
•Collect More ’10-11 Rookies! •Future Watch – #’d to 1299 value drop of 25%
now take into account the subsets to offset the value of rc's.
•Sign of the Times
•Sign of the Times Duals – inserted 1:144
•Sign of the Times Trios – #’d to 50 value drop 50%
•Sign of the Times Quads – #’d to 20 value drop 50%
•Sign of the Times Fives – #’d to 16 value drop 50%
•Sign of the Times Sixes – #’d to 14 value drop 50%
•Sign of the Times Sevens – #’d to 12 value drop 50%
•Sign of the Times Eights – #’d to 10 value drop 50%
•Prestigious Pairings – #’d to 100 value drop 50%
•SP Chirography – #’d to 100 value drop 50%
•Immortal Inks – #’d to 20 value drop 50%
•Marks of Distinction – #’d to 50 value drop 50%
•Autographed Patch cards •Autographed Future Watch Patch – #’d to 500 value drop of 60%
•Regular Card Limited Autograph Patch Parallel, Level 2 – #’d to 49-value drop 50%
•Collect More ’10-11 Rookies! •Future Watch – #’d to 1299 value drop of 25%
Without adding multiple subsets(like the 90's sets) into an already robust lineup of spa you can see there would be no room to accomplish what your asking of a company without taking there product into an abyss of depreciation and utter brand failure.!
as a collector i understand the nature of wanting value for your hockey dollar but as a buisness man i also look at the feasability
of proposed ventures and marketing value.
if spa ever asked me to market such a change in the lineup i would ask them if they were smoking crack with their dim witted inbred cousin in the back 40 when they came up with this idea.
thankyou and that is all

jv
Wow! That's a lot more effort than what I would ever do! I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this.

Maybe a compromise would be to add the autographed rookie cards of the Paul Postmas, Calvin de Haans & Erik Gustafssons in the NHL, but add them as extra "hits" in the product. So you'd get 6 autographed cards in SP Authentic instead of the 3, with 3 of the hits being "name" players & rookies & the other 3 being "everybody else". That way you satisfy the player collectors who'll get that autographed serially numbered rookie nobody else cares about, while the main collectors get some value & satisfaction at pulling a couple decent rookies, as well as a "star" player.
(05-21-2012, 10:15 AM)azicet Wrote: [ -> ]Wow! That's a lot more effort than what I would ever do! I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this.

Maybe a compromise would be to add the autographed rookie cards of the Paul Postmas, Calvin de Haans & Erik Gustafssons in the NHL, but add them as extra "hits" in the product. So you'd get 6 autographed cards in SP Authentic instead of the 3, with 3 of the hits being "name" players & rookies & the other 3 being "everybody else". That way you satisfy the player collectors who'll get that autographed serially numbered rookie nobody else cares about, while the main collectors get some value & satisfaction at pulling a couple decent rookies, as well as a "star" player.
double the hits is likely to double the cost of boxes if not triple due
to print run costs and excessive player auto's/material. so really your moving towards a brand upper deck already has "the cup" at 5 to 6 hundred a box. when collecting keep in mind as with each tier within
a set the set has a tier within an industry that has taken 100 years to market and establish.for example it started with tobbaco cards that had no public interest yet 100 years later are the most desirable cards in existence, remember its not whats valuable now thats important to many its whats going to be valuable in 10 or 20 years.
if you dont produce cards in short print of players beyond the top 20 your eliminating the foundation of a print run sets value. not to mention what happens when the 21st draft pick suddenly becomes known as an amazing player yet has no significant rc?
i'll leave with my last thought on this, ask yourself how many rookies in the top 20 have been complete dissapointments in the last oh say 30 yrs......tonnes! heres a link to refer back to when you think a card
company should alter the way they produce their product my freind.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/11095...ars/page/2

amagine the big dollars you'd pull from them awesome rc's? lol

cheers jv


(05-21-2012, 11:45 AM)705-janveaux Wrote: [ -> ]double the hits is likely to double the cost of boxes if not triple due
to print run costs and excessive player auto's/material. so really your moving towards a brand upper deck already has "the cup" at 5 to 6 hundred a box. when collecting keep in mind as with each tier within
a set the set has a tier within an industry that has taken 100 years to market and establish.for example it started with tobbaco cards that had no public interest yet 100 years later are the most desirable cards in existence, remember its not whats valuable now thats important to many its whats going to be valuable in 10 or 20 years.
if you dont produce cards in short print of players beyond the top 20 your eliminating the foundation of a print run sets value. not to mention what happens when the 21st draft pick suddenly becomes known as an amazing player yet has no significant rc?
i'll leave with my last thought on this, ask yourself how many rookies in the top 20 have been complete dissapointments in the last oh say 30 yrs......tonnes! heres a link to refer back to when you think a card
company should alter the way they produce their product my freind.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/11095...ars/page/2

amagine the big dollars you'd pull from them awesome rc's? lol

cheers jv
Well, thank you for reminding me of how many bad draft picks the Islanders have had! LOL!

Going back to the cards, at least putting the top 20-25 rookies in the set has some value at that time. Whether they all turn out to be all-stars or all turn out to be busts, at least there's enough interest in them right now that people would buy & collect them.

However, the number of "unknowns" who came out of nowhere to have great NHL careers has to be pretty small. Maybe 10 or so of these players are considered "stars" and when you compare that to the number of stars who were 1st-2nd rounders, the percentage is even smaller. Yet, at this point in the season, companies would be able to put a Carl Hagelin as an autographed rookie card in their set so I don't think too many would be "missed out".

To me it seems there are just too many autographed serially numbered cards of rookies who most people know won't amount to anything so why even bother having them in the set if only to meet the number of "hits". Shane Sims of the Islanders has a serially numbered rookie card in SP Game Used this year. On the back of his card, the text says he played 1 game, (the last game of the season no less), last year, as an injury callup. He was not drafted & has not played 1 game since & is out of hockey. Why would Upper Deck even think about putting him on a serially numbered rookie card as one of the "hits" in a box? It's players like that who get me aggravated at the card companies. Put him in Victory. Put him in Score. Don't put a guy everyone knows is bad in a $30/pack product.


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