Comments on: We all lose with MLB’s PED problem and how it’s reflected in Hall of Fame voting results http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/ Just another WordPress site Tue, 21 May 2013 17:23:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Jeff http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-105014 Jeff Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:30:30 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-105014 "I just don’t think you can ignore an era just because of steroids, which by the way were not banned substances in baseball at the time." Keith, steroids were banned in baseball in 1991 which would include most of the "Steroid Era". As for "70%" being thrown out by a number of players...who? The only two players I am aware of who have ever put a percentage on how many players took steroids were Jose Canseco (85%) and Ken Caminiti (50%). No offense to Jose and the late Caminiti (far be it from me to question their motives or integrity), but it was in both of their best interests to paint a picture of rampant steroid use. For them, if everyone did it then they don't look like villains. “I just don’t think you can ignore an era just because of steroids, which by the way were not banned substances in baseball at the time.”

Keith, steroids were banned in baseball in 1991 which would include most of the “Steroid Era”.

As for “70%” being thrown out by a number of players…who? The only two players I am aware of who have ever put a percentage on how many players took steroids were Jose Canseco (85%) and Ken Caminiti (50%). No offense to Jose and the late Caminiti (far be it from me to question their motives or integrity), but it was in both of their best interests to paint a picture of rampant steroid use. For them, if everyone did it then they don’t look like villains.

]]> By: JeffB http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104913 JeffB Fri, 11 Jan 2013 05:28:04 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104913 MLB has done nothing to diminish the accomplishments of any of the players from the Steroid Era. There have been no Kennesaw Mountain Landis-type banishments, removal of records, relinquishing of championships, etc. But the writers have now declared themselves (by their lack of votes) Judge, Jury and Executioner for the entire era. What kind of "Hall of Anything" excludes the greatest in their field? Last night on MLB.TV's "HOF Roundtable" one writer said that the players "need to be punished". Really? There were hundreds and hundreds of PED users, so how do you punish the Marvin Bernards, Phil Hiatts, David Seguis etc who used as well? Whether Bonds, Clemens and the other players on the ballot used, PED's one thing is certain: These were the guys that the fans were coming to see. The ones that filled the ballparks, sold the most jerseys, and increased the revenue throughout the sport. The one's that helped their teams win ballgames, division titles and even world championships I understand the "no first ballot for these guys" attitude, but in the next 5 years or so, they should be allowed in. Wednesday was "punishment" enough. Yet today, they are the only ones that are "guilty". MLB has done nothing to diminish the accomplishments of any of the players from the Steroid Era. There have been no Kennesaw Mountain Landis-type banishments, removal of records, relinquishing of championships, etc.

But the writers have now declared themselves (by their lack of votes) Judge, Jury and Executioner for the entire era.

What kind of “Hall of Anything” excludes the greatest in their field?

Last night on MLB.TV’s “HOF Roundtable” one writer said that the players “need to be punished”. Really?

There were hundreds and hundreds of PED users, so how do you punish the Marvin Bernards, Phil Hiatts, David Seguis etc who used as well?

Whether Bonds, Clemens and the other players on the ballot used, PED’s one thing is certain: These were the guys that the fans were coming to see. The ones that filled the ballparks, sold the most jerseys, and increased the revenue throughout the sport. The one’s that helped their teams win ballgames, division titles and even world championships

I understand the “no first ballot for these guys” attitude, but in the next 5 years or so, they should be allowed in. Wednesday was “punishment” enough.

Yet today, they are the only ones that are “guilty”.

]]> By: Michael Poyma http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104911 Michael Poyma Fri, 11 Jan 2013 04:55:35 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104911 It may not happen in his lifetime, and will certainly require his reinstatement to baseball by a commissioner other after Selig, but as far as I'm concerned, the moment a PED-head gets into the HOF, Pete Rose deserves a shot also. It may not happen in his lifetime, and will certainly require his reinstatement to baseball by a commissioner other after Selig, but as far as I’m concerned, the moment a PED-head gets into the HOF, Pete Rose deserves a shot also.

]]> By: Keith http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104896 Keith Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:32:52 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104896 70% is the number that has been thrown out by a number of players so that is where the 70% comes from. I tend to think that may be pretty close to a legit number. I don't support the use or think it was ok in any way, I just don't think you can ignore an era just because of steroids, which by the way were not banned substances in baseball at the time. Second, suspicion should not be part of it. What if your suspicions are incorrect? You are then unfairly penalizing someone for something they did not do. Anyone who tested positive should definately pay a penalty but the problem is that players who were clean are also being penalized just because of the era they played in. The other problem that i see is that records were set that are not legit and will never be challenged because they were set with the help of PED's. 70% is the number that has been thrown out by a number of players so that is where the 70% comes from. I tend to think that may be pretty close to a legit number.

I don’t support the use or think it was ok in any way, I just don’t think you can ignore an era just because of steroids, which by the way were not banned substances in baseball at the time. Second, suspicion should not be part of it. What if your suspicions are incorrect? You are then unfairly penalizing someone for something they did not do. Anyone who tested positive should definately pay a penalty but the problem is that players who were clean are also being penalized just because of the era they played in.

The other problem that i see is that records were set that are not legit and will never be challenged because they were set with the help of PED’s.

]]> By: Jeff http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104872 Jeff Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:14:17 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104872 Trouble is, 70% of the players weren't using steroids. Was it rampant? Yes. But most of the players weren't using. In fact, when they did the random testing in 2003 only 5-7% tested positive. Also, after the most thorough investigation in baseball history, the Mitchell report named just 89 players with connections to steroid usage. Does this mean Senator George Mitchell uncovered everyone and everything? Certainly not. However, even if we tripled the numbers, we'd still have a small group of players trying to gain an advantage. The issue with the Steroid Era has little to do with breaking rules or taking drugs. It has to do with desecrating the history of the game. Perhaps the state of New York should erect a small tent behind the Hall of Fame to display the plaques of the Steroid Users and call it the Hall of Shame. Trouble is, 70% of the players weren’t using steroids. Was it rampant? Yes. But most of the players weren’t using. In fact, when they did the random testing in 2003 only 5-7% tested positive. Also, after the most thorough investigation in baseball history, the Mitchell report named just 89 players with connections to steroid usage. Does this mean Senator George Mitchell uncovered everyone and everything? Certainly not. However, even if we tripled the numbers, we’d still have a small group of players trying to gain an advantage.

The issue with the Steroid Era has little to do with breaking rules or taking drugs. It has to do with desecrating the history of the game. Perhaps the state of New York should erect a small tent behind the Hall of Fame to display the plaques of the Steroid Users and call it the Hall of Shame.

]]> By: Keith http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104856 Keith Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:53:40 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104856 If 70% of the players were using steroids, doesn't that pretty much make it a level playing field? So isn't the HOF about putting in the best players of an era? I've always heard in the past arguments that "he was the best when he played" so compare his numbers to everyone else who was playing at the time. Since the majority of the players were using steroids, shouldn't we just vote in the best of the era? That just means the bar should be higher for players in the steroids era. If 70% of the players were using steroids, doesn’t that pretty much make it a level playing field? So isn’t the HOF about putting in the best players of an era? I’ve always heard in the past arguments that “he was the best when he played” so compare his numbers to everyone else who was playing at the time. Since the majority of the players were using steroids, shouldn’t we just vote in the best of the era? That just means the bar should be higher for players in the steroids era.

]]> By: Bob C. http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104817 Bob C. Thu, 10 Jan 2013 06:21:42 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104817 Today's result is a travesty for the game and the hobby. I personally do not have any issue with the writers failing to elect someone IF there are no viable candidates. But the fact of the matter is, this was likely the most stacked ballot in the history of the HOF. You can make a strong case against the likes of McGwire, as his numbers were largely HRs (which can surely be inflated by PEDs). However Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the hall. Even if they were taking PEDs, it is clear that there was rampant abuse by many players during the era they played in, and yet NO ONE came close to approaching the numbers they achieved (with the exception of Ruth and Young). Leaving them out of the hall as part of some moral crusade is simply ignoring history just as the NCAA "vacated games" attempts to do. That said, I think the biggest tragedy seems to be that PED suspicions have permeated to other players who were NEVER proven to take steroids, or in some cases even alleged to take them. The HOF has let in a number of undesirable characters, former cheats, and frankly undeserving/overrated players (Jim Rice comes to mind) in the past. We do not need the BBWAA to be the moral filter. Writers do not find a player worthy of the hall in year one, but suddenly 3-5 years later they are viable candidates. The BBWAA voting is a broken process and A HOF with out Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, or Piazza is a broken hall. Today’s result is a travesty for the game and the hobby. I personally do not have any issue with the writers failing to elect someone IF there are no viable candidates. But the fact of the matter is, this was likely the most stacked ballot in the history of the HOF. You can make a strong case against the likes of McGwire, as his numbers were largely HRs (which can surely be inflated by PEDs). However Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the hall. Even if they were taking PEDs, it is clear that there was rampant abuse by many players during the era they played in, and yet NO ONE came close to approaching the numbers they achieved (with the exception of Ruth and Young). Leaving them out of the hall as part of some moral crusade is simply ignoring history just as the NCAA “vacated games” attempts to do.

That said, I think the biggest tragedy seems to be that PED suspicions have permeated to other players who were NEVER proven to take steroids, or in some cases even alleged to take them. The HOF has let in a number of undesirable characters, former cheats, and frankly undeserving/overrated players (Jim Rice comes to mind) in the past. We do not need the BBWAA to be the moral filter. Writers do not find a player worthy of the hall in year one, but suddenly 3-5 years later they are viable candidates. The BBWAA voting is a broken process and A HOF with out Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, or Piazza is a broken hall.

]]> By: Joe R. http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104813 Joe R. Thu, 10 Jan 2013 02:16:12 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104813 The main problem with the voting is agenda driven writers vote instead of some independent panel, former players or some combo panel. how many writers would have really voted for bonds anyway because a bunch of people thought he was a jerk before he took PEDS. the same players the writers are accusing of ruining the game with steroids or peds, were getting just as rich of writing and covering all these players and they just like fans, players, owners, commish, turned a blind eye to the issue because the money stacks were higher than mountains. so a writer now becoming all high and mighty and condeming players is just hypocritical crap. IT IS A GAME, not life and death. the hall is full of players who did far worse things morally than take drugs. Mickey Mantle was a drunk, Cobb was a pure racist, and there are tons of players wh tell stories from the 60's and 70's about pill popping. and really whats the difference between being given the "needle " to be able to play the game and some guys taking PEDS. put them in based on numbers and let the hall of fame tell the story of the drug era. quit running from it and just face it already. The main problem with the voting is agenda driven writers vote instead of some independent panel, former players or some combo panel. how many writers would have really voted for bonds anyway because a bunch of people thought he was a jerk before he took PEDS. the same players the writers are accusing of ruining the game with steroids or peds, were getting just as rich of writing and covering all these players and they just like fans, players, owners, commish, turned a blind eye to the issue because the money stacks were higher than mountains. so a writer now becoming all high and mighty and condeming players is just hypocritical crap. IT IS A GAME, not life and death. the hall is full of players who did far worse things morally than take drugs. Mickey Mantle was a drunk, Cobb was a pure racist, and there are tons of players wh tell stories from the 60′s and 70′s about pill popping. and really whats the difference between being given the “needle ” to be able to play the game and some guys taking PEDS. put them in based on numbers and let the hall of fame tell the story of the drug era. quit running from it and just face it already.

]]> By: Randall http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104808 Randall Thu, 10 Jan 2013 01:52:13 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104808 More than having cheaters on the ballot, I can't stand the fact that writers who don't even follow baseball have a ballot to vote. Please stop allowing these people to vote! More than having cheaters on the ballot, I can’t stand the fact that writers who don’t even follow baseball have a ballot to vote. Please stop allowing these people to vote!

]]> By: chrisolds http://www.beckett.com/news/2013/01/we-all-lose-with-mlbs-ped-problem-and-how-its-seen-in-hall-of-fame-voting-results/#comment-104799 chrisolds Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:05:28 +0000 http://www.beckett.com/news/?p=56899#comment-104799 RJ: that card wasn't issued in packs because bonds signed with Topps late in the year. It was only given out via hobby shops. RJ: that card wasn’t issued in packs because bonds signed with Topps late in the year. It was only given out via hobby shops.

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