[zeus3007]

Now that I have defended Jags, I'm going to let everyone know my opinion on some of the goalies mentioned that I do not feel should be on this list.

1. Giguere- Yes, he won the Conn Smythe (when he didn't really deserve it), and yes he has won a cup. So what, Cam Ward has won a Cup and a Conn Smythe, and I don't see anyone throwing his name out there (and neither am I). Look at the evidence. He plays on a defense first team, with 2 of the top 5 d-men in the league on the ice for half of the game clearing any rebounds that he gives up. He isn't really sound positionally when compared to the other top tier goalies. Jags already mentioned the god-awful pads. Basically, yes, Giguere is on a team that has won a lot of games. But, aside from their first miracle cup run, Giggy has not had to stand on his head to do it, he lets the rest of his team win the games for him. And as per the miracle run, you cannot go by one cup run to explain how good a goalie is. If you could, then I would be on here explaining how Cam Ward, Dwayne Roloson and Ray Emery are all great, top tier NHL goalies because they had a great cup run a few years back.

2. Osgood- I think he is likely the most underrated goalie in the NHL, but I would not classify him as a top 5 goalie. He is solid, but he is not a game stealer like some of the other guys out there. End of my Ozzy discussion, I really respect him, but I don't consider him the best.

3. Kipper- 18 months ago, I probably would have agreed with him as number two (or number three) but Kipper wasn't even a top 10 goalie last season in my opinion. If he bounces back, then I would consider him, but I don't expect that to happen while Keenan is in Cowtown.

4. Nabokov- easily the best season in the West last year, but I don't think one season as the top goalie in the conference should instantly get him recognition as number two. I won't rag on his play, as I really like Nabokov, but in my opinion he is likely fourth or fifth on the list. I would like to see some of the other guys with crappier teams play on a team like SJ and see how they compare to Nabby.

5. Lundqvist- Top three since he arrived, could very well be the best in a few years. He has been prone to streaky play though, at times he is the best, at other times, he is the reason his team loses.

6. Luongo- Let me start by stating that I HATE THE CANUCKS. That is why it hurts me so bad to say that Luongo is, in my humble opinion, the second best goalie in the world. And you can throw all the stats out there that you want, stats do not change the fact that Bobby Lou has played on garbage teams for his entire career, minus one year (sorry Nucks and Panthers fans, no offense I hope). Luongo steals more games than any other goalie in the NHL. Without him in Florida, Ovechkin would be a Panther, only one of a long number of first overall picks that Florida would have had. And the bad part is, that it wouldn't have even been close. The Panthers would have rivaled the late 70's Caps, late 80's/early 90's Nordiques, or even the Sens expansion team records. Without Luongo last year, Vancouver would likely have had a top three pick. And if they didn't have Luongo coming into this season, I would bet almost everything I own on the fact that John Tavares will be Canuck come next summer. Luongo is that good. It doesn't take anything away from anyone else's favorite goalie, its just that Luongo is so freaking good.

Rant over. Other guys in the running for number two that have not been mentioned, Rick Dipietro (don't laugh, watch him play, and consider who plays in front of him. Very impressive), and Dan Cloutier...lol, just kidding, sorry Clouts fans (if any exist anymore).

[zeus3007]

ragmets Wrote:Take out a few cards of todays goalie stars, it always seems like some players are "bigger" than others. Giguere I dont even think is as good as he could be, or was supposed to be. Luongo though, while he is big, wears some darn huge material on those tree trunks of his.

That last post by jaromir was actually pretty good. That pict of theo and luongo is pretty incriminating. haha. You want to see argumentative, watch this......


ahem...




Tim Thomas


(ragmets turns off lights and runs for his life)


seriously though I didnt really mean to bring timmy the tooth's name up in this post.

Sounds like it is time for another of Jags' "Thomas sucks" rants. Prepare to be amazed.

[jaromirjagr68rw90]

zeus3007 Wrote:

ragmets Wrote:Take out a few cards of todays goalie stars, it always seems like some players are "bigger" than others. Giguere I dont even think is as good as he could be, or was supposed to be. Luongo though, while he is big, wears some darn huge material on those tree trunks of his.

That last post by jaromir was actually pretty good. That pict of theo and luongo is pretty incriminating. haha. You want to see argumentative, watch this......


ahem...




Tim Thomas


(ragmets turns off lights and runs for his life)


seriously though I didnt really mean to bring timmy the tooth's name up in this post.

Sounds like it is time for another of Jags' "Thomas sucks" rants. Prepare to be amazed.

Nah, I think between Alex Auld's stats and Marc-Andre Fleury being really, really good on the all-important statsheet...I think that this Thomas thing has worked itself out...it was fun while it lasted...just like it was fun when I argued against Cechmanek, against Theodore (before he got legitimately good again), against Cloutier, against Esche, against Emery...Thomas fits somewhere in there nicely...

[sboegeman]

I suppose I will throw my two cents in as well. To me, there are really only four guys in the discussion:

Roberto Luongo, Miikka Kiprusoff, Henrik Lundqvist, and Evgeni Nabokov.

Kipper had an off-year last year and maybe he falls off the list if he continues his down-trend. I have seen him a LOT over the last few years and this guy is absolutely unbelievable. I refuse to take him off the list yet. If anything, I think Mike Keenan will be his downfall, but that's a whole other debate.

Luongo is fantastic. When this guy is on, he is as close to a brick wall as there is. I am always having a hard time trying to figure out how I feel about him though. I mean, if you are truly a top-2 goaltender in the league, can you really only make the playoffs one time in your career? I know he has been on some bad teams in Florida. However, I don't think calling Vancouver a bad team is really accurate. They have switched to a very goaltender-friendly system with a defensive approach. Bieksa-Ohlund-Salo-Edler-Mitchell-Miller are a defensive tandem that many goalies would kill to have.

Lundqvist has to be there because he is so consistent. Night in and night out, you are going to get a solid performance out of King Henrik. I give him a pass for that small stretch this season because he had some serious family issues with his father that would be hard for anyone to overcome. Outside of that, three years and three Vezina nominations isn't too shabby.

Nabokov really put it altogether this past season. I wouldn't call it a fluke because he has had many other solid seasons in the past. If anything, I would call his disappointing 06-07 season the fluke.

As for all the Giguere talk, no way in heck is he #2. I don't need to go into reasons because it has all pretty much been said. It makes no difference to me what Luongo says. Ditto for Ryan Miller, Marty Turco, or Rick DiPietro. They are all fine goalies, but they are still a notch below the four mentioned above.

[sabresmax08]

haha this is a great thread. I'm going to say right now I'm pretty bias. I'm a Huge Giguere fan. He's the only player I really collect and simply my favorite player. Jagr, you have plenty of fine arguments and i learned a lot reading your posts from before. But I just don't think you can argue his numbers:

Regular season career:
411 GP 2.43 GAA .915 Save %

Playoff stats Career
51 GP 2.09 GAA .925 Save %

Those are simply very solid numbers. The equipment argument I think is pretty moot simply because everyone can wear pads within the same dimensions as everyone else. Giguere Can't wear bigger pads just cause, he has to be within the same rules as everyone else. Giguere also won the Conn Smythe in 03 because the ducks were a 7 seed and weren't projected to do much of anything in the playoffs, Brodeur easily couldve won as well, but I don't think you can take it away from Giguere either. I guess my argument is more against you saying he's the most over-rated player of the last decade, That just seems way over blown.

Now, all that aside, and Giguere being my favorite and all; the argument should end with Luongo. You see what he does on a night in night out basis and it's unbelievable. He spent 5 years playing behind a MISERABLE panthers team and turned away 45-50 shots on a regular basis. Talk about under-rated, if he played on any sort of contender he would've easily won a couple veizna's by this point in his career amongst some other awards he deserves.

[newfiecomicguy1]

Lundqvist or Nabokov

[dnichols3]

i would toss my vote in for Manny Legace. even on a offensively anemic team like the Blues, he can still carry them.

[jbmmadman]

Roger Clemens is the best goaltender in MLB.......uh

[wiseguy917]

fly4apuckguy Wrote:

dglvr Wrote:Jaromir or what ever you never ending name is your post always seem to be argumentive so get a life already, gee!

Argumentative at times and always extraordinarily informative. Instead of insulting the guy, read his posts. You might learn a thing or two.

I think you guys enjoy eachother way too much.........................

[fungchen3]

To jaromir and the rest, this is certainly a decent debate. I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion and likes/dislikes. I think arguments can be made for more than a few guys, including the Luongos, Kippers, Nabokovs and Lundqvists. It will be interesting to see, when Marty is out of the picture, who does step up and take the lead as the head netminder in the business.