[pjrussell529]

I understand people have their own beliefs on how good a player would have been without PED's but here's some numbers to mull over. By Rodriquez's own admission he started using PED's his first year in Texas (although it is widely believed he may have started in high school). In his 7 years in Seattle he hit 189 home runs for an average of 27 per year. In the following 3 with Texas and the start of his admitted use he hit 156 for an average of 52 per year. That is nearly a 100% increase in home run production. His age 22-24 seasons he averaged 42 home runs per year. Not impossible by any stretch but given his background...

Bonds was a legitimate 32-34 home run hitter per year. How long would it have lasted naturally? I have no clue. He hit 73 out in 2001 at an age of 36. He hit something like 411 from his age 31-39 seasons. That's just under 46 a year. I really have no problem with people who like, admire, collect the PED guys. They are your beliefs and I realize mine may not be right. I don't understand though how people think they should be recognized for their "accomplishments".

I don't collect PED guys myself (some may argue Papi) but I'm also not giving away my McGwire or Bonds rookies either. And I agree about their "accomplishments". Hank Aaron and Roger Maris are still the HR leaders in my book but that's just me.

Yea that 20% is probably low but that is only something I base it on. Giving them the benefit of getting stronger naturally. We just can't guess at what they would have accomplished. Just like we can't guess at what the value of the junk wax era stars cards could have been. Which I think is a fun topic to discuss as well.

[Hofcollector]

I like you and think you are a great trader, but I disagree with just about everything you said. And yes, both Mays and Mantle were banned from MLB by Bowie Kuhn and later reinstated, even though it was admitted they broke the rules and an exception was made. And you can't prove you didn't do something, and whatever you think, or whatever you heard, there was not enough evidence to convince a jury even though the government spent millions trying to make it so. So apparently whatever testimony Pettite and his ex-trainer ( who I don't know why anyone would believe) was not compelling enough. And by the way, let's have Griffey Jr. and Jeter both prove they didn't take steroids. If 2 people showed up and said Jeter did it, would that be all the proof you needed? And just to be clear, I'm not saying they didn't do it, I'm just saying that sufficient proof to exclude them from the Hall of Fame and tarnish everything they accomplished does not exist, or at least has not been shown to exist yet.

So you don't get the wrong idea, I like you as well. Your a good guy and nothing you say on this subject will change my opinion of you. We're only in a debate here. Just so you know, your not the only one who has been falsely accused of a crime or questionable activity and I still don't believe in innocent until proven guilty. Sometimes there are circumstances where every bit of proof points in a different direction but someone still takes a screwing. I know because I'm a prime example. These guys aren't a part of that minority. Sometimes things are the way this seem.

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I don't collect PED guys myself (some may argue Papi) but I'm also not giving away my McGwire or Bonds rookies either. And I agree about their "accomplishments". Hank Aaron and Roger Maris are still the HR leaders in my book but that's just me.

Yea that 20% is probably low but that is only something I base it on. Giving them the benefit of getting stronger naturally. We just can't guess at what they would have accomplished. Just like we can't guess at what the value of the junk wax era stars cards could have been. Which I think is a fun topic to discuss as well.

Your right, I'm right and no one's really right. I'm only giving my opinions.

Your are correct though on changing the subject. Has anyone started a favorite junk wax era card thread yet?

[randall44]

My final word on this, for now. NOBODY knows everyone who took or didn't take, unless they are God. Sometimes the player may not even know. People's lives are being ruined based on "everyone knows", or "anyone can see". Often times people are wrong, even when they are certain they are right. And I assure you there are people out there that took steroids and you would never suspect. You shouldn't be banned from the HOF for being a jerk, and you shouldn't get a free pass because you are a nice guy. The all-times hits leader is banned from the HOF, and while I disagree, it was the rule and he knew what the punishment would be. And he admitted to it. Bonds and Clemens are two of the greatest players ever, with ridiculous numbers, they were accused took their case to court and despite the governments best efforts and millions of dollars could not be found guilty. And quite frankly even if they were found guilty I would still put them in the HOF because there is absolutely no definitive way to separate out the PED users from the non users, of to determine what effect if any it had on their numbers, especially with Clemens who was a pitcher. In what way does big and strong make you a better pitcher.

[Hofcollector]

My final word on this, for now. NOBODY knows everyone who took or didn't take, unless they are God. Sometimes the player may not even know. People's lives are being ruined based on "everyone knows", or "anyone can see". Often times people are wrong, even when they are certain they are right. And I assure you there are people out there that took steroids and you would never suspect. You shouldn't be banned from the HOF for being a jerk, and you shouldn't get a free pass because you are a nice guy. The all-times hits leader is banned from the HOF, and while I disagree, it was the rule and he knew what the punishment would be. And he admitted to it. Bonds and Clemens are two of the greatest players ever, with ridiculous numbers, they were accused took their case to court and despite the governments best efforts and millions of dollars could not be found guilty. And quite frankly even if they were found guilty I would still put them in the HOF because there is absolutely no definitive way to separate out the PED users from the non users, of to determine what effect if any it had on their numbers, especially with Clemens who was a pitcher. In what way does big and strong make you a better pitcher.

Last word: I agree you can never tell everyone who did or didn't partake in PED's. You just have to try and do your best to catch as many as possible like any other crime. It ain't perfect.

As far as pitchers taking PED's, they mainly do it for the drive they get from their legs, increasing velocity. Roger Clemens often regarded his thighs as the money makers. Pettite also acknowledged this was why they (he and Clemens) did this.

[petillo64]

What I mean when I say mindless corporation is that they are solely focused on making money. I've stated before I believe they knew what was going on and did nothing about it for years because it benefited them and their bank accounts. They were enablers but they weren't guilty of committing the act. There were rules set forth by the MLB that clearly stated right from wrong and even if they were loosely enforced by the MLB for a period of time they were right there in black and white for the players to read. Of course the MLB would turn their heads for as long as possible. They knew they'd make a ton of money and have zero accountability or ramifications for it. There had to be a conscious decision by each and every player to take illegal substances or not. I absolutely hate part of this argument people have in regards to players that get caught in the present but get lumped in with the Canseco's, etc. The MLB banned steroids in 1991. There's no excuses. Also, I don't fault guys for taking things that were eventually banned. If they weren't on the list at the time, they weren't illegal.

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Also, I understand why people say he's had a hell of a career. I just don't see it that way. Where do the steroids stop and the god given talent start? We'll never know. Who's to say what he's doing now isn't the residual effects of PED's or the physical advancements gained from years of HGH use?

True. I guess what pisses me off is exactly what you stated with the god-given versus roids performance, and differentiating between the two, and the fact that we will never know. A lot of great players and performances I enjoyed are forever tainted. But, that is also exactly why I appreciate what A-roid is doing this year. I want to believe that the talent was there, and all those years of baseball watching were not equivalent to watching Hulk Hogan win the WWE title at the age of 49!
Don't ruin my hopes with your logic, Matt!

His performance this year and for the rest of his career (in my mind) carry with him the slightest validity of a lot of great, but tainted, players, who I feel deserve to be recognized in some form by baseball.