[fishmaster6030]

Thanks for the heads up guys. We have just started seeing Panini's in lots we are getting through auctions.

[micorps]

micorps, if you think Topps holds up in sales to Panini in football, you obviously do not go to breakers, hang around shops or the like. Panini outsells Topps 2-3 to one, if not more. If you somehow do believe it is the other way around, your problem is that Topps did not agree with you. (Comment: So are you saying Panini products sell 2-3 more times based on quantity or price? Please articulate so I can understand your argument)

So yes, it seems to me, the company with the best selling products is likely the best choice of the hobby. Personally I think Panini has better customer service as well. Traditionally, you have a Topps problem, they send you a $2 scrub auto, while at least with Panini they try to match the value to some degree. (Comment: I haven't needed to use topps customer service, which is because they have always followed through on their redemptions. This means a lot to me as a consumer, plus I prefer their products. Besides, I got scrub damaged autos from Panini for replacement redemptions, I almost thought you were talking about Panini for a second.)

[ZSDOne]

ZSDOne, value of these cards are not determined by Panini. If you think they should sell for $4 less, then you are of course to try to buy them for $4 less, but the market for these cards clearly exist. People will buy them and pay much more then they should go for, but that is on the public, and they are welcome to as far as I am considered.

It is unlikely the hobby could have continued to support 25-30 different products.

Actually, I would place the fair value of a 150 point card less than $1 at most since you have to pay more than $4 to get a card with a fair market value of about $5. Have you actually bothered to look at the Panini Rewards website to know how brutal the 150 point cards really are? Even the 250 point cards aren't that great - at least they are worth enough that you get a little bit of value even after paying for shipping. Maybe if someone is trying to gather up points to get something specific or if you can get a lot of the rewards cards at once there can be some value to sell, but I believe that it makes much more sense to buy single cards. For the casual collector who might only buy a couple of boxes a year and doesn't try to make money selling cards but might trade them, the rewards system is a complete disaster - and as a casual collector who doesn't sell cards but might trade them, I do not like it.

I go to four local card shops on a fairly regular basis. The main local hobby shop that I stop by at least once a week and talk with the owner even if I decide not to buy anything that day always sells out of Topps football products almost immediately and has Panini products sitting on his shelves for months - often reaching the point where he winds up selling the products at just above cost to free up the shelf space. The others are similar - if you want to get a Topps product, you basically have to buy it immediately.

I couldn't care less what the breakers do - I don't participate in them - and maybe the reason breakers are opening more Panini products is because the Panini Rewards cards are a big subsidy to people who do commercial breaks since they can just keep them or sell them. And if you open tons of cases and boxes as a business, you might be able to get sufficient economy of scale to be able to use the rewards cards - casual collectors cannot do that

I guess you must also have missed the part where Panini will be increasing the number of football products that they sell once they get the exclusive NFL license. Panini has already announced that there will be releasing more than 20 products themselves.

Look, I understand if you like Panini products - they have made some good ones - Prizm looks good, I like how Rookie & Stars looks this year. Contenders is usually pretty good. But I can't understand why you are defending this system so intently. As I've said, for people who open a ton of boxes and cases as a commercial enterprise, the Rewards system probably works out great - for casual collectors, kids just starting out (future collectors), and people who just want to get some cards because they want to collect them and trade them but not looking for something to sell, this is a disaster.

I'm perfectly happy opening a box and getting an autograph of a scrub I've never heard of if I don't already have an autograph by that player - even more so if it is one of my p.c. - that is because I collect autographed cards. I know others are not.

If Panini did not require collectors to subsidize their failure to provide content in boxes, I'd like this program since it enabled me to assure getting an auto from a player I didn't have one from. But Panini expects collectors to pay extra to get what Panini failed to deliver in the first palce. I think that completely stinks and I'm not buying any more of their boxes.

[mbostick]

Actually, I would place the fair value of a 150 point card less than $1 at most since you have to pay more than $4 to get a card with a fair market value of about $5. Have you actually bothered to look at the Panini Rewards website to know how brutal the 150 point cards really are? Even the 250 point cards aren't that great - at least they are worth enough that you get a little bit of value even after paying for shipping. Maybe if someone is trying to gather up points to get something specific or if you can get a lot of the rewards cards at once there can be some value to sell, but I believe that it makes much more sense to buy single cards. For the casual collector who might only buy a couple of boxes a year and doesn't try to make money selling cards but might trade them, the rewards system is a complete disaster - and as a casual collector who doesn't sell cards but might trade them, I do not like it.

I go to four local card shops on a fairly regular basis. The main local hobby shop that I stop by at least once a week and talk with the owner even if I decide not to buy anything that day always sells out of Topps football products almost immediately and has Panini products sitting on his shelves for months - often reaching the point where he winds up selling the products at just above cost to free up the shelf space. The others are similar - if you want to get a Topps product, you basically have to buy it immediately.

I couldn't care less what the breakers do - I don't participate in them - and maybe the reason breakers are opening more Panini products is because the Panini Rewards cards are a big subsidy to people who do commercial breaks since they can just keep them or sell them. And if you open tons of cases and boxes as a business, you might be able to get sufficient economy of scale to be able to use the rewards cards - casual collectors cannot do that

I guess you must also have missed the part where Panini will be increasing the number of football products that they sell once they get the exclusive NFL license. Panini has already announced that there will be releasing more than 20 products themselves.

Look, I understand if you like Panini products - they have made some good ones - Prizm looks good, I like how Rookie & Stars looks this year. Contenders is usually pretty good. But I can't understand why you are defending this system so intently. As I've said, for people who open a ton of boxes and cases as a commercial enterprise, the Rewards system probably works out great - for casual collectors, kids just starting out (future collectors), and people who just want to get some cards because they want to collect them and trade them but not looking for something to sell, this is a disaster.

I'm perfectly happy opening a box and getting an autograph of a scrub I've never heard of if I don't already have an autograph by that player - even more so if it is one of my p.c. - that is because I collect autographed cards. I know others are not.

If Panini did not require collectors to subsidize their failure to provide content in boxes, I'd like this program since it enabled me to assure getting an auto from a player I didn't have one from. But Panini expects collectors to pay extra to get what Panini failed to deliver in the first palce. I think that completely stinks and I'm not buying any more of their boxes.

Again what you value a reward card, or any card for that matter, does not matter. You are not the market.

No breaker keeps the reward cards, they random them to the spot holders. Not sure how you can keep stating such, when you clearly are not involved.

It's not just breakers buying a lot more Panini....you apparently missed the whole National show. Topps gave out a single convention card every day. Panini has lines 4-5 times longer, gave out cases and cases of convention packs, invited dealers and big buyers to meet players and get free autos.

Question all you want, it changes nothing as far as Panini not just outselling, but lapping Topps.

I am not telling you what to do, think or like. This is reality, and if you see blame, its hardly a Panini thing. It's the NFL license. If you have a problem with the set up, then you should be complaining to the NFL, but don't forget this is a business, and you likely lack almost all information the NFL and card company executives have. Lacking such information it is unlikely any board would or even could take you serious.

Pretend we are talking some other product, say Disney signs a deal with Burger King for toys in their kids meals for the next big Disney film. In this example, several are complaining about Burger King, and mostly by bringing up things that matter nothing to the deal made, like maybe you don't burger king fries. You are ignoring the history of the companies previous and future deals, and have no clue to how the contract is set up. But still, your going to keep complaining that you want McDonald's to make the toys, or maybe you want McDonald's, Burger King and Jack n the Box to make the toys......an option that never was on the board.

This is not me defending the set up. I would prefer a 1996 set up with 5-6 companies, bring back Pacific. That never was an option and I would be foolish to demand such.

[ZSDOne]

No breaker keeps the reward cards, they random them to the spot holders. Not sure how you can keep stating such, when you clearly are not involved.

Here is where you post something so obviously laughable (you cannot possibly know what every box breaker does - note, the claim that I cannot know what I've personally paid for cards in person or what the prices of cards I've seen displayed for sale are (and for that matter, the claim that what cards are actually being offered for sale at a card shop does not represent actual market price is also laughable - you can't get a better indication of what actual market price is than the price that a store is offering an item for sale at) comes close) that I simply ask:

how long have you worked for Panini?

I'm done with you.

[bselje]

I'm reading this thread and all I can think to myself is "mbostick"'s last name must rhyme with "Tackler".

[mbostick]

Yes, my last name is Tackler, or its Bostick. Hmmm....

You guys are welcome to live a box, and pretend only your thoughts matter, and not the reality around you, that this is not a business. To continue to demand an option that is not there, and see where that gets you.

If you guys really want to do something, you need two things, a voice and a message. To achieve a voice collectors need to organize. Sports cards are the only large collectible group without a leading and acknowledged collectors organization.

Then as I noted you need a message, meaning an ideal or thought that the majority of you think or back. A mixed message of complaints will get you no where.

Without these two things, and an understanding of the deals between the NFL and say, Panini, it is literally impossible for you to achieve anything.

You also have to understand that the option never was to continue how things where. The option is Panini or Topps.

---

Here is where you post something so obviously laughable (you cannot possibly know what every box breaker does - note, the claim that I cannot know what I've personally paid for cards in person or what the prices of cards I've seen displayed for sale are (and for that matter, the claim that what cards are actually being offered for sale at a card shop does not represent actual market price is also laughable - you can't get a better indication of what actual market price is than the price that a store is offering an item for sale at) comes close) that I simply ask:

how long have you worked for Panini?

I'm done with you.

You are just showing your inexperience with breakers, and yes, there is likely 1-2 breakers that do things different, that doesn't change that breakers in general do not keep hits like reward cards.

Also, this was not a new element to breaking, there have always been cards that did not fit into team drafts, and they have always been randomed to the group. Spend a weekend on breakers and you will not see it done any other way. If the breaker did keep hits, no one would join his breaks again. It's really that simple. Honestly would join Joe's next break if he kept half the hits? I am betting no, as neither would anyone else.

How you can make a negative claim, you clearly don't have knowledge about, and do it multiple times, is a joke.

[ZSDOne]

As a service to you, I will explain the concept of "burden of proof" to you

See, when you say something "never" happens or "no" x do y, it becomes your burden of proof to prove that it is in fact true that no x do y.

That also means that in order to disprove you statement, all someone need to show one instance where x did in fact do y. And you yourself did that by acknowledging the obvious - that some box breakers are less than honest (indeed in these forums there has been at least one instance reported where a box breaker simply fled with people's money and not delivered any cards at all). Even if it is only 1 person 1 time, that still completely disproves your claim that x never happens.

There is no need to fight or be rude about this - we both know that there are dishonest people in this hobby. That is why I only buy single cards in person so I can know what I am getting - even then, I can't guarantee that the card I am buying is not counterfeit. But if I do get a counterfeit card buying it in person, at least I can take solace in the fact that it was a good counterfeit.

in any case, there is enough to not like about the Panini Rewards program that providing a new way for the less than honest to get benefits for themselves is a minor problem.

The real problem which you wisely did not bother to attempt to argue against is that the change from shipping redemptions for free to charging people to receive a card is that Panini is transferring a lot of value from the pockets of collectors to themselves.

[thelegendjerryrice]

This is reality, and if you see blame, its hardly a Panini thing. It's the NFL license. If you have a problem with the set up, then you should be complaining to the NFL, but don't forget this is a business, and you likely lack almost all information the NFL and card company executives have. Lacking such information it is unlikely any board would or even could take you serious.

I agree. Panini did not say HEY !!! NFL take out license away.
And did you stop to maybe think the NFL might have gotten wind of how disappointed the hobby is in Panini ?
Or to give each company a shot every few years ?
Panini... Topps... Upper Deck....(hopefully not).

[mbostick]

As a service to you, I will explain the concept of "burden of proof" to you

See, when you say something "never" happens or "no" x do y, it becomes your burden of proof to prove that it is in fact true that no x do y.

That also means that in order to disprove you statement, all someone need to show one instance where x did in fact do y. And you yourself did that by acknowledging the obvious - that some box breakers are less than honest (indeed in these forums there has been at least one instance reported where a box breaker simply fled with people's money and not delivered any cards at all). Even if it is only 1 person 1 time, that still completely disproves your claim that x never happens.

There is no need to fight or be rude about this - we both know that there are dishonest people in this hobby. That is why I only buy single cards in person so I can know what I am getting - even then, I can't guarantee that the card I am buying is not counterfeit. But if I do get a counterfeit card buying it in person, at least I can take solace in the fact that it was a good counterfeit.

in any case, there is enough to not like about the Panini Rewards program that providing a new way for the less than honest to get benefits for themselves is a minor problem.

The real problem which you wisely did not bother to attempt to argue against is that the change from shipping redemptions for free to charging people to receive a card is that Panini is transferring a lot of value from the pockets of collectors to themselves.

You are the one who made the claim about breakers, multiple times, before I mentioned your claim. I have no need to disprove your claim. Anyone who has messed with the breakers understands the process. Your feelings on them is clearly a different issue.

But again, this is rather simple. Would you enter Joe's next rip if he kept hits for himself (without a spot)? You likely would not, and neither would anyone else. It is not random people entering breaks...but the same guys over and over. Again, spin it how you want, but this is rather simple. Anyone can spend a night on breakers and check....this is not being done in secret. No decoder rings needed.

Showing someone has ripped another off, does not all show or even hint at what you claim.

As far as things you have mentioned like rewards shipping, I have been discussing the license issue. Which is large enough topic on it's own. I don't think these other concerns, by you and others, with Topps, Panini or the NFL, are likely part of the license deal, were not a factor in the license deal and are unlikely to be part of any future license deal.

I am guessing you guys understand that all of major league sports have went exclusive license..