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Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
03-02-2013, 06:59 PM
Post: #1
Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
So I had a relatively high end RC card. It was .5 away from 9.5 which would have made it a pop 1. There are only two 9s in population report of which I had one of them. Sub grades were 10 centering, 9.5 edges, 9.5 corners, and 8.5 surface.

So i bust it safely out of case and resent it back to BGS for a regrade. It comes back an 8.5 overall which isn't so bad its not much of change in overall grade down from a 9. However, sub grades were now 8.5 centering, 9 edges, 8.5 corners, 8.5 surface. How does the centering go down 1.5? Did the card magically shift off center? Corners down a full point from 9.5 to 8.5? I know there is human error involved with this but c'mon these "professional" graders are a joke. Clueless with the sub grading and auto grading.

The sub grading and auto grading was a novel thought but they should just give the card a single grade and just authenticate the auto. Keep it simple they are embarrassing themselves.
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03-03-2013, 10:19 AM
Post: #2
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
(03-02-2013 06:59 PM)rusty222 Wrote:  So I had a relatively high end RC card. It was .5 away from 9.5 which would have made it a pop 1. There are only two 9s in population report of which I had one of them. Sub grades were 10 centering, 9.5 edges, 9.5 corners, and 8.5 surface.

So i bust it safely out of case and resent it back to BGS for a regrade. It comes back an 8.5 overall which isn't so bad its not much of change in overall grade down from a 9. However, sub grades were now 8.5 centering, 9 edges, 8.5 corners, 8.5 surface. How does the centering go down 1.5? Did the card magically shift off center? Corners down a full point from 9.5 to 8.5? I know there is human error involved with this but c'mon these "professional" graders are a joke. Clueless with the sub grading and auto grading.

The sub grading and auto grading was a novel thought but they should just give the card a single grade and just authenticate the auto. Keep it simple they are embarrassing themselves.

Sorry about your card, but I couldn't disagree more, both with respect to your subgrade and Auto grading claim. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Heck, I wish that Beckett would bring back subgrades on their vintage grading.

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03-06-2013, 10:20 AM
Post: #3
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
I can see corners easily getting dinged when busting out of the case. i'm sure you were careful, but i'm just saying it is possible. Centering certainly shouldn't change though. Do you have a scan (front and back)? If the card truly is worthy of a 10 on centering (50-50 front, 60-40 back), talk to your regional rep and maybe they will help you out.

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03-16-2013, 12:31 AM
Post: #4
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
I also think there should be an explanation of why a card earned it's sub-grade. If you get something appraised and it doesn't reach what you thought it was worth, everyone's natural response is, "Why?" No one is ever going to just say, "OK," without questioning the reasons behind the lower expectations.

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03-16-2013, 06:59 AM
Post: #5
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
(03-16-2013 12:31 AM)912golfer Wrote:  I also think there should be an explanation of why a card earned it's sub-grade. If you get something appraised and it doesn't reach what you thought it was worth, everyone's natural response is, "Why?" No one is ever going to just say, "OK," without questioning the reasons behind the lower expectations.

It's on the website, but here you go:

A comprehensive training program has been developed based upon decades of in-house hobby expertise. Each card will be thoroughly analyzed in several key areas and assigned an overall grade based upon the accumulation of the individual characteristics. Here is the basic criteria for each grade and area.

Pristine 10

Centering: 50/50 all around on front. 60/40 or better on back. Corners: Perfect to the naked eye and Mint under magnification. Edges: Perfect to the naked eye and virtually free of flaws under magnification. Surface: No print spots. Flawless color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines.

Gem Mint 9.5

Centering: 50/50 one way, 55/45 the other on front. 60/40 or better on back Corners: Mint to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under magnification. Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny. Surface: A few extremely minor print spots, detectable only under intense scrutiny. Deep color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines

Mint 9

Centering: 55/45 both ways on front. 70/30 or better on back. Corners: Mint upon close inspection. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny. Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. Unobtrusive specks of chipping on the borders are allowed. Surface: A handful of printing specks or one minor spot. Very minor focus or color imperfections. Clean gloss with one or two tiny scratches barely noticeable to the naked eye. One faint, unobtrusive metallic print line is allowed.

Near Mint/Mint 8

Centering: 60/40 both ways or better on front. 80/20 or better on back. Corners: Sharp to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under close examination. Edges: Relatively smooth borders. Specks of chipping visible to the naked eye are allowed. Surface: A few minor print spots. Very minor color or focus imperfections. Solid gloss with very minor scratches detectable only upon close inspection. Or a subtle metallic print line.

Near Mint 7

Centering: 65/35 both ways or better on front. 90/10 or better on back. Very slight diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Very minor wear on two or three corners is allowed. Edges: Slight roughness, minor chipping or very minor notching is allowed. Surface: A few noticeable print spots or minor speckling is allowed. Minor color or focus imperfections. Very minor border discoloration. A very minor wax stain on back. Solid gloss with a few minor scratches detectable upon close inspection. A few metallic print lines.

Excellent Mint 6

Centering: 70/30 both ways or better on front. 95/5 or better on back. Slight diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Fuzzy corners, but free of dings and fraying. Edges: Moderate roughness, moderate chipping or minor notching is allowed. Surface: Noticeable print spots. Minor color or focus imperfections. Minor border discoloration and color or focus imperfections. Minor wax stains or extremely subtle ink marks. Relatively solid gloss with minor scratches, but devoid of scuffing. Noticeable metallic print lines.

Excellent 5

Centering: 75/25 both ways or better on front. 95/5 or better on back. Slight diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Four fuzzy corners, a touch of notching or a minor ding is allowed. Edges: Noticeable roughness - but no layering. Very slight notching or noticeable chipping is allowed. Surface: Noticeable print spots. Minor color or focus imperfections. Minor border discoloration. Minor wax stains or very light ink mark. Some gloss lost from surface with minor scratches, but devoid of scuffing.

Very Good/Excellent - 4

Centering: 80/20 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or better on back. Moderate diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Slight notching or layering, or moderate dings are allowed. Edges: Readily chipped or notched and/or slightly layered. Surface: Heavy print spots. Hairline creases. Moderate color or focus imperfections. Moderate border discoloration. Moderate wax stains. Very light ink mark or tape stain. A good deal of gloss lost from surface. Very minor scuffing or an extremely subtle tear in the form of a touch of broken surface paper.

Very Good 3

Centering: 85/15 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or better on back. Moderate diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Slightly rounded or noticeably notched corners with slight layering is allowed. Edges: Heavy notching, moderate layering or heavy chipping is allowed. Surface: Heavy print spots. Very minor creases. Noticeable color or focus imperfections. Noticeable border discoloration. Noticeable wax stains. Light ink mark or tape stain. Very little surface gloss. Minor scuffing or a very minor tear.

Good 2

Centering: 90/10 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or offcut on back. Noticeable diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Noticeably rounded or heavily notched corners with moderate layering. Edges: Severely chipped, notched or layered. Surface: Severe print spots. Noticeable creases. Noticeable color or focus imperfections. Noticeable border discoloration. Heavy wax stains. Moderate ink mark or tape stain. A surface devoid of gloss. Noticeable scuffing or a noticeable tear.

Poor 1

Centering: 100/0 or offcut on front or back. Heavy diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Heavily rounded or heavily notched with noticeable layering. Edges: Destructive chipping, notching or layering. Surface: Severe print spots. Heavy creases. Severe color or focus imperfections. Heavy border discoloration. Severe stains. No original gloss. Heavy scuffing or a severe tear.

* Half-Point Grades

Please note that Beckett Grading Services provides final grades in half-point increments (i.e., 10, 9.5, 9, 8.5 etc.). Cards that are assigned a grade with a half-point increment typically share characteristics from both the level above and the level below the actual grade given.

**These are not rules, only general guidelines. Below are some basic autograph grading standards. There are no half-point grades, and the lowest grade is a 5.
Autograph Grading Scale (5 through 10):

10 - A beautiful, boldly signed autograph that appears nearly perfect to the naked eye. Under normal viewing, it looks like an aesthetically- pleasing autograph.

9 - This is a signature that is also very pleasing, but has slight imperfections that barely detract from the autograph. Very light bubbling or micro scratching is allowable, but no yellowing, fading, or smearing. Positioning should be nearly perfect - with just the very tips of a letter or two cut off or hidden.

8 - At this level, some flaws begin to stand out slightly. Signature is still solid and pleasing, but might be somewhat bubbled throughout, or have areas of minor scuffing/scratching that detracts from the aesthetic beauty of the signature. Only lightly visible yellowing or fading or smearing is allowed. A cut signature may only have 10% of the signature hidden (or missing, when referring to a sticker autograph). Only a very small tip of the signature may run off or bleed onto the edge.

7 - Flaws are evident, including heavy bubbling throughout, noticeable scratching, minor but noticeable yellowing or fading, small but obvious portions of smeared ink. Up to 20% of a cut autograph may be hidden, or 20% of a sticker auto may be missing. A portion of the signature may run off the card or may bleed onto the edge.

6 - Heavy flaws are easily visible and highly distracting, including bubbling to the point of portions of the autograph being essentially invisible, extremely distracting scratching, yellowing or fading, or significantly smeared ink on multiple areas of the autograph. Up to 35% of a cut autograph/sticker may be hidden/missing. Several letters of the signature may run off the card, bleeding onto the edge or opposite side of the card.

5 - Very heavy flaws that highly distract from the autograph, including portions of the autograph being completely removed or invisible, catastrophic scratching throughout the entire autograph, extremely heavy yellowing, massive fading of the entire signature, smeared ink throughout the entire autograph. Over 50% of a cut autograph/sticker may be hidden/missing.

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02-27-2014, 04:54 AM
Post: #6
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
I like the sub - grades.

Nothing is ever perfect, maybe the first person over graded it.
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02-27-2014, 07:47 AM
Post: #7
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
(02-27-2014 04:54 AM)KingKuba Wrote:  I like the sub - grades.

I also like the subgrades. I wish that they would bring back subgrades for their Vintage Grading (BVG).

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02-28-2014, 05:46 AM
Post: #8
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
I can understand something potentially happening to the surface/corners/edges but, yeah, the centering dropping that much, from the grade it had gotten, is pretty weak.

With that said, the human factor is always going to be a part of the grading process unfortunately. One mans Gem Mint is another mans Mint.
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03-02-2014, 04:57 PM
Post: #9
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
It would be nice if BGS had graders that specialized in individual aspects of the grading process. There are clearly some graders who emphasis corners more than others. Lately, I've seen a lot more intense grading of the surface than I've seen in 8 yrs of grading. Clearly there is someone there who that is the most important aspect. Then there would be more consistency when stuff gets submitted. Two of three people who grade the same way for every submission would be nice. You shouldn't have to spend more money in the hopes of getting a different grader and a better grade.

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03-04-2014, 01:44 PM
Post: #10
RE: Another example why BGS sub grading is terrible idea...
The concept of subgrades I'm ok with BUT not if the consistency is not there. I get that this is done by humans and that there is room for interpretation....in this case with regards to centering, maybe 10 from one and 9.5 from another but 10 to 8.5 for centering which has to be one of the easiest subgrades to determine is not acceptable.

Thankfully the vast majority of cards I sent in for grading are BVG so all I have to deal with is wonder what caused a card to get a certain grade. Please Please Please.....no subgrades for Vintage cards and maybe Beckett will eventually compete with PSA on the older stuff.

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