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Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
01-19-2013, 11:11 AM
Post: #1
Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
I came across a recent SI article by Tom Verducci. I thought he perfectly explained why steroid cheats are (rightly) being excluded from the Hall of Fame.

Obviously, not everyone agrees on this. But I thought Verducci did a great job of debunking some of the popular notions surrounding this issue. (e.g., racists being voted in, everyone was doing it, steroids haven't been proved to improve baseball performance, etc.)

No matter your opinion, thought you might enjoy this article.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/new...=uk_bf3_a7

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01-19-2013, 02:22 PM
Post: #2
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-19-2013 12:00 PM)Ziveus101 Wrote:  Pretty well written, although I'm curious as to know what he thinks of Gaylord Perry being in the HoF.

I think the thing with doctoring balls almost has an element of gamesmanship that is more or less accepted. -Although a true spitball is probably rare these days, almost every single pitcher uses rosin and licks his fingers. Look under the bill of a lot of pitcher's caps and you'll see tar/resin spots (which they constantly touch between pitches). In the 2006 World Series when Kenny Rogers has visible resin on his thumb, the opposing manager (La Russa) didn't even make a stink about it. He knows it's a part of the game, but he just asked the umps to have Kenny wash his hand.

I'm not sure what Verducci would think, but my guess is he'd put spitballs in a different category than PED use.

To me, it's more akin to a skillful catcher who can frame balls on the outside corner so that they look like strikes, or a pitcher with a slide step move that crosses the line into balk territory.

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01-19-2013, 03:35 PM
Post: #3
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-19-2013 12:00 PM)Ziveus101 Wrote:  Pretty well written, although I'm curious as to know what he thinks of Gaylord Perry being in the HoF.

Gaylord came forward and admitted everything. That's the first thing these PED users need to do to even be considered for the HOF IMO. I doubt Gaylord would get into the HOF so easy nowadays though. This new generation of voters seems to have cracked down on cheating
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01-20-2013, 08:26 AM
Post: #4
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
At this point...it really doesn't matter who did PED's or not. Its MLB's fault for not testing for this stuff. These guys were doing exactly what almost everybody else in the league was doing at the time. If their game reflects Hall of Fame consideration then they should get in. If you could rig the lottery to help you gain an advantage would you do it? Of course.

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01-20-2013, 09:34 AM
Post: #5
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
So there are players to have been found to have used steroids one way or another. Big Mac is one and his numbers are not HOF stuff and guys rumored but nothing material came Barry Bonds has lock down numbers for the Hall. So if PED are an edge why isn't everyone that took it putting up HOF numbers. I don't care how you do it but if no proof how can you be guilty of using then. But separate area or a asterisk or whatever some of these guys had big numbers. We have cheaters of all sorts in the Hall it's not a museum of nice guys it a baseball museum bout the best players spanning the whole time of baseball

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01-20-2013, 10:54 AM
Post: #6
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
I hate these articles like this. Some "Journalist" debating why a guy belongs and one doesn't belong in a Hall of Fame. If Verducci took steroids, I guarantee he couldn't put up the numbers that the guys that did or allegedly did. Same with below average players. It may help their recovery time and keep them from getting serious injuries, but they're not going to be Bonds or Big Mac or ARod caliber players. Bonds was a hall of famer before he started juicing. I probably wouldn't have voted Mac in anyway if I had a vote. ARod to me is a hall of famer. If you want to put a label on the 90's wing labeling it the PED/Steroid era, that would be ok. But you need to say that all players could have been doing it since there wasn't testing for it.

I just think that it is stupid that you have writers voting for players. They always hold grudges. No one has gotten in with 100% of the vote as far as I know. That to me shows that the writers don't need to be voting for players.
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01-20-2013, 11:21 AM
Post: #7
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
greenies are PEDS. better kick out mantle, mays, aaron, etc

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01-20-2013, 12:01 PM
Post: #8
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-20-2013 11:21 AM)jacobystealshome Wrote:  greenies are PEDS. better kick out mantle, mays, aaron, etc

I'm not an expert on the topic, but from what I've read, the performance enhancing aspect of amphetamines is not clear. The gist of it is that greenies basically affect the users mind (and central nervous system), which in turn alters the users perception of his ability/performance, but does not actually enhance it. Of course, users who feel more focused and less tired can presumably push their body further and might, as a result, perform better, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

Steroids on the other hand demonstrably affect the body's chemistry and unquestionably leads to performance enhancement in many respects (muscle building, recovery, etc.). I will say, though, from what I've read, there's supposedly no scientifically-proven performance benefit from HGH. (The number of athletes who continue to use it suggests otherwise).

Sure, at some point the line gets blurry. And there's probably plenty of "experts" who can make a good case one way or the other.

In my mind at least, particularly with amphetamine usage in the pre-1970s, I don't think it's in the same category as modern PED use. Baseball banned non-prescription use of prescription drugs in 1971.
In 1991 or 92, federal law banned the non-prescription use of steroids.

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01-20-2013, 03:44 PM
Post: #9
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-20-2013 12:01 PM)uvaspina Wrote:  I'm not an expert on the topic, but from what I've read, the performance enhancing aspect of amphetamines is not clear. The gist of it is that greenies basically affect the users mind (and central nervous system), which in turn alters the users perception of his ability/performance, but does not actually enhance it.

While that may be true, the intention was there. Those were being taken to try to get a leg up on their competition. If you're trying to cheat, even if it doesn't work, is that really any different than using steroids? I think you're splitting hairs if you're only against the ones who succeeded at it.
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01-20-2013, 05:47 PM
Post: #10
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
An interesting read. Both the article and this thread. My opinion is this, players who were cuaght cheating shouldn't get in. Innocent until proven guilty, right? Hence, Roger Clemens should get in. Mark McGwire shouldn't. If they didn't get caught, it is a moot point as to whether they used or not as there is no proof.

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