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Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
01-20-2013, 08:41 PM
Post: #11
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-20-2013 05:47 PM)nyyankeesfan28 Wrote:  An interesting read. Both the article and this thread. My opinion is this, players who were cuaght cheating shouldn't get in. Innocent until proven guilty, right? Hence, Roger Clemens should get in. Mark McGwire shouldn't. If they didn't get caught, it is a moot point as to whether they used or not as there is no proof.

Well to a point. Would you consider A Rod a HOF player at the end of his playing time. Said he used but not at a time of testing. If no rules/testing was in place then no harm no foul. Just getting a leg up. We are not voting on moral character. And its crazy that not 1 player in the 60 plus years of voting has ever been 100%. Writers should get a vote but select few. Maybe a rotation of 100 writers a year plus current hall members but to allow just writers is crazy. AND AARON SELE got a vote really I would vote him to a 15 and under slow pitch softball travel team

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01-20-2013, 10:26 PM
Post: #12
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
The fact of the matter is.....Steroids do not give you the skills to play baseball. They help you heal quicker and they make your muscles grow faster. Barry Bonds was a Hall of Fame player whether he used or not. I personally will never go to the Hall of Fame after all this BS. The people that vote on that stuff are a bunch of people that never picked up a bat in their life and have no idea what it really takes to play the game of baseball. I played baseball well into college and even got scouted by a couple big league teams. And I know for a fact that steroids don't give you baseball talent. I took Andro when it was legal and I personally gained nothing from taking it and in fact I blew out my arm in front of 2 scouts while taking it. So I refuse to buy into this whole PED crap. The fact of the matter is that the baseball season is LONG and people get aches and pains and if you can take something to make yourself not have aches and pains, then you are going to do that. Some people that used steroids gained more physically than others. But that is a reflection of their workout routine. If you take steroids and sit on the couch nothing is going to happen to you except you may yell at your wife a little bit more than normal. Just further proving my point that steroids don't give you a Hall of Fame career.

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01-20-2013, 10:53 PM
Post: #13
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-20-2013 10:26 PM)joba the clark Wrote:  The fact of the matter is.....Steroids do not give you the skills to play baseball. They help you heal quicker and they make your muscles grow faster. Barry Bonds was a Hall of Fame player whether he used or not. I personally will never go to the Hall of Fame after all this BS. The people that vote on that stuff are a bunch of people that never picked up a bat in their life and have no idea what it really takes to play the game of baseball. I played baseball well into college and even got scouted by a couple big league teams. And I know for a fact that steroids don't give you baseball talent. I took Andro when it was legal and I personally gained nothing from taking it and in fact I blew out my arm in front of 2 scouts while taking it. So I refuse to buy into this whole PED crap. The fact of the matter is that the baseball season is LONG and people get aches and pains and if you can take something to make yourself not have aches and pains, then you are going to do that. Some people that used steroids gained more physically than others. But that is a reflection of their workout routine. If you take steroids and sit on the couch nothing is going to happen to you except you may yell at your wife a little bit more than normal. Just further proving my point that steroids don't give you a Hall of Fame career.

Interesting perspective. But did you read in the article where Dan Naulty (admitted steroid user) attributed steroids to his fastball velocity increasing from 87 to 96? Whether that's representative or not is impossible to say. But what is clear --to me-- at least is that the steroid era produced ridiculously inflated home run totals (among other stats). Let's be serious. Sammy Sosa was not a HOF caliber player. And then suddenly he AVERAGED more than 50 HR per year over a SEVEN-YEAR period. That's crazy.

And while Barry Bonds was certainly a HOF-caliber player all along, his steroid use turned him into a monster. I don't believe for a second that he'd hit 70+ HR as a clean player (in his late 30s). 55? Sure. 60? Mayybee. In the process though he devalued the stats and careers of a lot of guys. (I think he maybe would've had a shot at 650 HR. Tops.) Same thing with McGwire and Sosa. Steroids most certainly put them over the top. There's no way they would've broken one of the most hallowed records in all of sports had they not cheated.

I'm not sure that guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, and company deserve to be blackballed for life, but it certainly doesn't bother me one bit that they might have to wait 5 or 10 or 15 years to get in. Maybe we'll learn more in the meantime and maybe people's perception will change.

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01-20-2013, 11:30 PM
Post: #14
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
All I can do is speak for myself and what these things did for me. I always had a cannon for an arm and I still do. I pitched for a city league baseball team 7 years after that happened in Altoona, PA and was still bringing my fastball up to 92 mph. And I was not taking anything then. But I think in most supplements that if you believe it is going to work then it will work.This guy believed steroids gave him 9 mph on his fastball...it may be true but i seriously doubt it was all steroids. I am sure he was working out like crazy to better himself as well.
(01-20-2013 10:53 PM)uvaspina Wrote:  Interesting perspective. But did you read in the article where Dan Naulty (admitted steroid user) attributed steroids to his fastball velocity increasing from 87 to 96? Whether that's representative or not is impossible to say. But what is clear --to me-- at least is that the steroid era produced ridiculously inflated home run totals (among other stats). Let's be serious. Sammy Sosa was not a HOF caliber player. And then suddenly he AVERAGED more than 50 HR per year over a SEVEN-YEAR period. That's crazy.

And while Barry Bonds was certainly a HOF-caliber player all along, his steroid use turned him into a monster. I don't believe for a second that he'd hit 70+ HR as a clean player (in his late 30s). 55? Sure. 60? Mayybee. In the process though he devalued the stats and careers of a lot of guys. (I think he maybe would've had a shot at 650 HR. Tops.) Same thing with McGwire and Sosa. Steroids most certainly put them over the top. There's no way they would've broken one of the most hallowed records in all of sports had they not cheated.

I'm not sure that guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, and company deserve to be blackballed for life, but it certainly doesn't bother me one bit that they might have to wait 5 or 10 or 15 years to get in. Maybe we'll learn more in the meantime and maybe people's perception will change.

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01-20-2013, 11:55 PM
Post: #15
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
recent quote from Hall of Famer Goose Gossege on MLB radio interview on the topic of sterioids/hall of fame/and greenies use in his time(admitted) I'll para phase his answer as I would hate to misquote and be attacked for it.

None of them cheaters (steroids useers) should get in. When asked about the use of greenies, the then stated. Aww... come on I might have used them to stay awake in the bull pen, after drinking two cases of beer the night before, but that ain't even the same thing. Steroid users are cheaters.

Now that is an elected (debateable Hall of Famer) who justifies his own use of PEDs and at least one effect it gave him to allow him to perform while he condemns the whole steroid area of players as cheaters.


While I agree that cheaters probably should not be honored in a Hall of Fame, I have a real problem with the greatest stars of an era not being represented in the hall. I would put Rose and Jackson in to honor the sport, not to endorse cheating. When you have players on both sides of the ball doing it, with the MLB all but endorseing the use.. I fall on the side of vote on the stats and career and sort out the rest inside the Hall.

Anyone remember when Giambi tried to talk about the subject when he played for the Yankees... he was quickly silenced and almost cast from the game.... but everybody knew of suspected it...

How is this style of vote fair to "clean" player if Edgar Martinez played clean in this era and put up the numbers he did, but was surpassed by "cheaters" then shouldn't his numbers mean more?
Oh I know.. he's a DH not a player... thats a spot in the batting order not a real position.

and a closer is a what? He plays for one inning and a DH hits 5 times a game... Baseball is about numbers and heart, if you have both you deserve to be inshrined in my book. Everything is subjective.

Clemens had that kind of carrer... Late in his carrer he pitched a spring training game in Lakeland, he was really off, poor control, gave a bunch of hits, and like 5 runs over 4 innings... but when he left the game.. the whole stadium stood to applaud..not Astros fans, not just the young or the old... everyone. The man tipped his hat to the fans, as he walked off... Why? Because he knew it was what he did in his career not that lousey start in a spring game. That same guy stopped and signed a ton of autos when he walked out... with his wife in the car waiting for him. That's the guy I remember how he got there and why I'm not real concerned with.

Maybe I'm wrong... but that's how I feel.

sorry to get so long winded.

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01-21-2013, 12:43 AM
Post: #16
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-20-2013 11:30 PM)joba the clark Wrote:  All I can do is speak for myself and what these things did for me. I always had a cannon for an arm and I still do. I pitched for a city league baseball team 7 years after that happened in Altoona, PA and was still bringing my fastball up to 92 mph. And I was not taking anything then. But I think in most supplements that if you believe it is going to work then it will work.This guy believed steroids gave him 9 mph on his fastball...it may be true but i seriously doubt it was all steroids. I am sure he was working out like crazy to better himself as well.

Canseco said he used steroids not only for strength but also to ease his degenerative disc disease and extended his career. McGwire and others have said the same thing. I know there is no way to tell how much PED helped, but the fact that everyone from Barry Bonds to Lance Armstrong to Ben Johnson broke world records makes me think there is something to them.
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01-21-2013, 06:55 AM
Post: #17
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
This debate will never end you can go either way. I personally feel that if your numbers were good enough for the Hall Of Fame then let them in. I see a ton of players not in that have better numbers than people who are in. If so many people were using steroids in the 90's than there was no real advantage for anyone. Steroids might help your power but it doesn’t help your swing out. It might make your pitch faster but dose nothing for your accuracy to throw a strike. Anyway you look at it I still feel the players like Bonds and Clemens should be in. Now if your boarder line and you used Steroids then no but if you were great then just let them in.

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01-21-2013, 12:40 PM
Post: #18
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
In 1978 I had an open tryout with the Philadelphia Phillies. I played first base and caught most every errant throw from all the wannabe infielders. I was a switch hitter and could spray the ball to all fields, often roping them down the lines for doubles. What I couldn't do was run. I felt like I had lead in my spikes and was one of the slowest guys in the tryouts. Yeah, I didn't make the cut and ended up taking my bat and glove and going home.

Now if someone had told me that I could've take a little pill that would allow me to run like the wind, I probably would've taken it. I would've done most anything to have a shot at playing Major League ball. If they told me it was illegal then I wouldn't take it. I was 18. I wouldn't have thought to ask if it was legal or not and I probably wouldn't have known one way or the other. Instead I enjoyed an 18 year career in the men's slow pitch softball league, won numerous trophies and never made a dime.

Grant it that was 1978. I suppose that in the 1990s, knowledge was key. If they knew they were taking something illegal then shame on them. As a fan, I didn't know McGwire and Sosa were on something. It wasn't until Caminiti and Canseco came out that I began to feel ashamed for them. Lots of players during that era put up phenomenal numbers. They weren't all taking stuff. I'd like to think that Griffey and Maddux, Ryan and Ripken, Thomas and Gwynn all put up numbers due to their talent. I'd also like to think the same of Clemens and Bonds. Were some just better cheaters than others? Do we just ostracize the ones that get caught? I think we tend to try them all in the court of public opinion even though we don't know the facts. Clemens was thrown under the bus by a shady trainer. Maybe he didn't cheat but don't we all suspect he did and hold that against him? Only God Almighty and Clemens himself know the truth. Not enshrining one on speculation is as unfair as any advantage a pill or syringe could give you. What I mean by that is the writers who vote are guilty of their own sins yet they play God. That's not fair.

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01-21-2013, 02:42 PM
Post: #19
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-21-2013 12:40 PM)zeprock Wrote:  Not enshrining one on speculation is as unfair as any advantage a pill or syringe could give you. What I mean by that is the writers who vote are guilty of their own sins yet they play God. That's not fair.

It sounds like a little more than speculation! It came out during grand jury testimony, Bonds said that he used a clear substance and a cream that he received from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson. Records seized from Anderson home and Balco Labs had Bonds name on drug records.
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01-21-2013, 03:57 PM
Post: #20
RE: Why PED users don't belong in the HOF
(01-20-2013 08:26 AM)joba the clark Wrote:  If you could rig the lottery to help you gain an advantage would you do it? Of course.

I can honestly say that I wouldn't rig the lottery.

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