[jimfalbo21]

go past base stats

Yes I could pull up WAR, FIP, RAA, and other metrics. The only problem is that when you use advanced metrics on these boards, you end up spending more time trying to explain the statistics and what they mean than anything else.

That being said, Morris's advanced metrics don't do him any favors anyway. I did quote his ERA+ which puts his ERA in the proper context.

His aggregate post season #'s weren't as great as people think, although he was stellar in 2/3 WS:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/player...ason::none

[gherkin1496]

you tell em jimbo....jack morris isn't even close to the hall of fame. I would be pretty furious if he got in, just as i was furious about the awful omissions from this past vote. watching mlb network, it's kind of pathetic when the harold reynolds of the world try to defend Morris against the Brian Kenny's of the world. I am not a full believer in sabermetrics. some guys just are hall of famers to me...but i think statistics should be the dominating factor

[jaredhuizenga]

As a Twins fan I got to see a lot of Black Jack with both the Tigers and the Twins. And, despite the fact that he pitched the most important game in the history of my favorite team, I can't look at his numbers, compare them to other HOFers and HOF candidates and say he belongs for sure. Does he belong in over a guy like Jim Kaat or Tommy John?

That being said, I wouldn't be angry if he were to make it in as there are several players that have been inducted in recent years that I don't think belong with the best of the best in the game's history. Blyleven, Rice and Dawson are the first ones to come to mind.

[uvaspina]

I think he's a borderline candidate. It woudn't bother me if he got in on his fifteenth and last try. -However, I never liked the argument that he was the "best pitcher of the 80s." Usually that's based on the fact that he had the most wins during that arbitrary period. A lot of that was just a matter of coincidence, coming into his prime in 1980 almost exactly and had a very solid 10-year run. (Who has the most wins from 1972 to 1982, or 1978 to 1988? Who cares?) Arguably, Doc Gooden was the most dominant pitcher of the 80s (and a case could be made for Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens and Orel Hershiser and Brett Saberhagen). All of those guys had at least 1 Cy Young during that time and some had just as good--if not better--ten year stretches during their careers. Morris didn't win a Cy Young (and never finished higher than third, so it's not like he was robbed 4 times or anything). I will not dispute that Morris could just as plausibly be considered the best pitcher of the 80s though.

One thing that impressed me about Morris is that he started opening day 14 times (I think) and mostly for good teams. That says a lot. He was a big game pitcher too, which also says a lot, and was able to go deep in games. With that said, I don't think it's a travesty whether he gets in or not.

---

Had he retired 2 years earlier, he probably would've done himself a favor. Sure, he would've missed out on 17 winds, but his career ERA would have been 3.6 something and he would've gone out on a strong note at age 37. Instead, he pitched poorly the last 2 years to the tune of a 6.19 and 5.60 ERA in '93 and '94, respectively, with some ugly WHIPS (1.6 and 1.6).

Plus, he just looks creepy these days:

http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll...g-out-time

[jacobystealshome]

i think you are mistaking what i am saying. please see my first post. i am not arguing whther he is a hall of famer or not. i am simply saying that using stats - and im a huge believer in sabermetrics - doesnt always fully paint the picture

anyone who was old enough to watch baseball in the 80's that hack morris was a far superior pitcher to any of the guys you just listed. gooden was incredible for a couple seasons, but then...coke. also, started in 1985. fernando only had a couple of plus seasons. saberhagen didnt come into the league until 84, and was notorious for being the "proto-beckett" (every-other yer pitcher). additionally, most of the guys you listed were NL guys.

how many pitchers who pitched in the AL, post DH, have been elected to the HOF?

none

im not arguing whether morris was a hof'er - i think he is borderline, at best. i think using just stats is silly

[zeprock]

Not a Hall of Famer. Worthy of consideration but you've got to draw the line somewhere and like the aforementioned Tommy John and Jim Kaat and even Luis Tiant he falls just below it.

[jimfalbo21]

additionally, most of the guys you listed were NL guys.

how many pitchers who pitched in the AL, post DH, have been elected to the HOF?

none

Catfish Hunter (won a Cy during DH years)
Jim Palmer (3 Cy's during DH years)
Gaylord Perry (8yrs post DH)
Fergie Jenkins (8 years in AL post DH)
Nolan Ryan (12 yrs pitched in AL post DH)
Bert Blyleven (16 yrs in Al post DH)

[Vols-1]

Pros: Winningest pitcher of the 80's.
Cons: Losingest pitcher of the 80's.

In another 10 years he might get in when the veterans committee vote. They pretty much let anybody in though lol.

[jacobystealshome]

Catfish Hunter (won a Cy during DH years)
Jim Palmer (3 Cy's during DH years)
Gaylord Perry (8yrs post DH)
Fergie Jenkins (8 years in AL post DH)
Nolan Ryan (12 yrs pitched in AL post DH)
Bert Blyleven (16 yrs in Al post DH)

yea, i screwed up the wording on that. obviously i meant "pitcher who spent his entire career in a post-dh AL".

[uvaspina]

i think you are mistaking what i am saying. please see my first post. i am not arguing whther he is a hall of famer or not. i am simply saying that using stats - and im a huge believer in sabermetrics - doesnt always fully paint the picture

anyone who was old enough to watch baseball in the 80's that hack morris was a far superior pitcher to any of the guys you just listed. gooden was incredible for a couple seasons, but then...coke. also, started in 1985. fernando only had a couple of plus seasons. saberhagen didnt come into the league until 84, and was notorious for being the "proto-beckett" (every-other yer pitcher). additionally, most of the guys you listed were NL guys.

how many pitchers who pitched in the AL, post DH, have been elected to the HOF?

none

im not arguing whether morris was a hof'er - i think he is borderline, at best. i think using just stats is silly

You make good points. In my post, I wasn't specifically responding to yours, other than the fact that you mentioned the "best pitcher of the 80s." I addressed that point because it's something I hear mentioned a lot. Really, all that I was getting at is the fact that his best of the 80's title had a lot to do with lucky timing.

As far as Gooden, Clemens, and Saberhagen, all pitched for the better part of the decade and all would've been considered as good (if not way better) than Morris had their careers more neatly aligned with the decade's starting line.

So, to be clear, I don't really have a beef with Morris. I won't be mad or thrilled if he gets in. I, too, think there's more to a player's career than stats alone. I love baseball stats, but I also like the intangibles too.

---

I did a little more research and came across these interesting tidbits (from an SI article evaluating his candidacy):

Morris threw a no-hitter against the White Sox on April 7, 1984, the signature moment in Detroit’s 35-5 start en route to a world championship. Through the end of May he was 10-1 with a 1.88 ERA, but a rough stretch following that — a 6.30 ERA over 14 starts from June through mid-August — as the Tigers ran away with the AL East led to criticism in the media about his level of intensity. At one point, Morris stopped talking to the press until ordered to resume doing so by manager Sparky Anderson. He finished the 1984 season 19-11 with a 3.60 ERA (109 ERA+), then went 3-0 with a 1.80 ERA in three postseason starts as the Tigers rolled over the Royals in the ALCS and the Padres in the World Series.
***
Via another strong season in 1987 (18-11, 3.38 ERA, 126 ERA+, 4.8 WAR), he helped the Tigers to an AL East flag, though he was rocked for six runs in eight innings as his team was upset by the Twins in the ALCS.
***
Morris’ final three years in Detroit (1988-1990) weren’t so pretty. Though still durable enough to average 218 innings even with his DL stint in 1989 due to an elbow injury, his ERA for that stretch was 4.40, and was worse than league average in all three seasons.
***
He spurned the Tigers’ three-year, $9.3 million offer and signed a one-year, $3.7 million deal with the Twins that included incentives and two player options that could take it up to $11 million. He rebounded from a 15-18, 4.51 ERA showing to go 18-12 with a 3.43 ERA (125 ERA+) and 4.1 WAR for the Twins, earning his fifth and final All-Star appearance. Knocked out after just 5 1/3 innings against the Blue Jays in the ALCS opener, he threw eight strong innings in Game 4, and the Twins prevailed in five. They won the World Series opener against the Braves behind his seven innings of two-run ball, but lost Game 4, in which Morris was pulled after six innings of one-run ball and just 94 pitches — a relatively light outing by his standards, but then again, he was on three days’ rest. He would make his Game 7 start on three days’ rest as well, but needed just 126 pitches to complete the job. The Twins won it for him via Gene Larkin’s pinch-single in the bottom of the 10th.
***
Despite the championship and the hometown-boy-makes-good narrative, Morris opted out of his contract that winter and signed with the Blue Jays. Though he went 21-6, his 4.04 ERA translated to just a 101 ERA+. The Blue Jays won the AL East, the ALCS and the World Series, but Morris wasn’t able to duplicate his postseason magic; chased before completing five innings in two of his four starts, he was roughed up for a 7.43 ERA with 15 walks in 23 innings. That was the beginning of the end for Morris; he was terrible the following season with the Blue Jays (6.19 ERA), excluded from their postseason rotation, and knocked around for a 5.60 ERA with the Indians in the strike -shortened 1994 season. He pitched for the hometown St. Paul Saints in the independent Northern League in 1995, hoping for a return to the majors, but he couldn’t find a deal. He nearly signed with the Yankees in 1996 but was unwilling to pitch more than once in the minors. At 41, his career was over.
**
Full article can be found here: http://mlb.si.com/2012/12/21/jaws-and-th...ck-morris/

I had not read this article until just now. But it gave me a pretty good sense why he has fallen short of the HOF. Although he did not have any serious character issues, there's no question that his surly attitude did him no favors. -Guys like McGriff and Murphy will always have ardent supporters--Morris' crew on the other hand is a lonelier bunch that has been gradually joined by reluctant voters.