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HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
10-04-2012, 01:29 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2012 11:55 AM by dbroockerd.)
Post: #1
HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
Before I start I want everyone to know I won't be offended if you agree or disagree with my player making the hall or anything like that. Don't be afraid to post the your honest opinion. All I ask is that all posts remain in good taste. Don't start trashing players or people for there comments.

I will turn this into a contest and anyone with a sour comment towards any player in this thread or towards any person posting on this thread will be disqualified. Also if you are not supporting your answer then your of no help.

The contest winner is not determined by answers as long as you support your answer you will be entered.

Here are the questions I'd like to hear opinions on.

1. Is Craig Biggio a first ballot HOFer? Support your answer please.

2. Is Jeff Bagwell a HOFer? I don't mean anytime soon necessarily. It can be 14th ballot for all I care. I just wanna know your opinions. Again support your answer.

3. The only player with 3000 hits who has been on a HOF ballot and not currently made it in is Rafael Palmiero. Is he a HOFer? Do the steroid allegations end his chances? Did he even intentioanlly use? He to this day claims he never intentionally took them. Support answer!

4. Does Bert Blyleven deserve to be in the HOF? It took a long time and the numbers nearly said no then suddenly rebounded after many years to let him in. Support answer!!

5. Lastly, but certainly not least. Does my boy Frank Thomas deserve to be a HOFer? If he makes it will he be a first ballot HOFer? Support answer!!

Let the contest begin. I will close this when I feel ready. Remember to keep all answers in good taste even when referring to steroids etc.

Thanks!

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10-04-2012, 02:02 PM
Post: #2
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
1. For Biggio, I would say yes, but it could be close. Yes, he may not have been in the post season that much, but for someone to be an All-Star at 2 different positions and have over 3000 hits deserves a 1st nod. He's also on the list with Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Schilling, Piazza, etc... that's why I think he may or may not make it but it will be close.

2. For Bagwell, I'm leaning towards no, but as you mentioned he could be put in 10 years from now. His numbers fall short for me, only 4 all-star appearances (really only 3 great seasons), so his consistency hurts him. He was an MVP though so that helps, but overall I still think no.

3. For Palmeiro, and for every other steroid user caught (or unknowingly knew they did it), I don't think get into the Hall until after they are dead (Pete Rose is another, but that's a different topic) and even then I don't think they will. Bonds is the only player I can think of that may get in before he dies only because he was sooo great before the steroid allegations.

4. I'm still not sure how Blyleven got in. If anyone plays the game for 23 years, of course they are gonna have high numbers, but it doesn't show greatness. Only 2 All-Star appearances, but he does have the 2 WS rings, so maybe that bumped him over. I personally wouldn't have voted for him.

5. Frank Thomas in my opinion is an absolute lock for the HOF. Did anyone put more fear into a pitcher more than him during the 90's?!? .301 career average, 520+ bombs, 1700+ RBI. 2014 HOF INDUCTEE!!
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10-04-2012, 02:07 PM
Post: #3
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
Biggio yes. 1st ballot. 3000 hits all get first ballot.

Bagwell yes. Top 50 in most offensive stats. Astros would be nowhere without him and biggio.
Would have massive numbers if he didn't break hand 3 times.

Blylevin. You need low level hof.

Thomas. No roids massive numbers. Made teams better. First ballot hopefully

Mussina! 100 wins 2 teams. Compared stat wise to marichal. Great career before Yankees. Only lost cy to Clemons and his needle

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10-04-2012, 02:12 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 02:15 PM by dbroockerd.)
Post: #4
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
(10-04-2012 02:02 PM)motu79 Wrote:  1. For Biggio, I would say yes, but it could be close. Yes, he may not have been in the post season that much, but for someone to be an All-Star at 2 different positions and have over 3000 hits deserves a 1st nod. He's also on the list with Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Schilling, Piazza, etc... that's why I think he may or may not make it but it will be close.

2. For Bagwell, I'm leaning towards no, but as you mentioned he could be put in 10 years from now. His numbers fall short for me, only 4 all-star appearances (really only 3 great seasons), so his consistency hurts him. He was an MVP though so that helps, but overall I still think no.

3. For Palmeiro, and for every other steroid user caught (or unknowingly knew they did it), I don't think get into the Hall until after they are dead (Pete Rose is another, but that's a different topic) and even then I don't think they will. Bonds is the only player I can think of that may get in before he dies only because he was sooo great before the steroid allegations.

4. I'm still not sure how Blyleven got in. If anyone plays the game for 23 years, of course they are gonna have high numbers, but it doesn't show greatness. Only 2 All-Star appearances, but he does have the 2 WS rings, so maybe that bumped him over. I personally wouldn't have voted for him.

5. Frank Thomas in my opinion is an absolute lock for the HOF. Did anyone put more fear into a pitcher more than him during the 90's?!? .301 career average, 520+ bombs, 1700+ RBI. 2014 HOF INDUCTEE!!

----
So Thomas for you makes it second year on the ballot. I think your take on the steroid users is interesting. The possibility that one day they make it after they pass. I honestly never gave that a thought. I chose not to bring up Rose. Its long been discussed and it never ends well. Thanks for the opinion. You are entered in the contest.

(10-04-2012 02:07 PM)dontpray Wrote:  Biggio yes. 1st ballot. 3000 hits all get first ballot.

Bagwell yes. Top 50 in most offensive stats. Astros would be nowhere without him and biggio.
Would have massive numbers if he didn't break hand 3 times.

Blylevin. You need low level hof.

Thomas. No roids massive numbers. Made teams better. First ballot hopefully

Mussina! 100 wins 2 teams. Compared stat wise to marichal. Great career before Yankees. Only lost cy to Clemons and his needle

A little plug for Mussina. Nice! Not playing favorites are we Jeremy? While I don't think you support your answers well I appreciate the post. I'll consider letting you in the contest although you are the underlying reason be behind my post, haha. Now stay mute and lets see what these guys/gals have to say.

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10-04-2012, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 02:18 PM by rmpaq5.)
Post: #5
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
1. Is Craig Biggio a first ballot HOFer? Support your answer please.

When you look at a body of work I would have to answer yes, but even though HOF is an individual award, his teams never won a World Series. This will no doubt creep into the minds of some voters. Also playing in Houston is a drawback on a first ballot. The media exposure just didn't exist for him. Playing in New York or LA would have boosted chances. Now these are the cons, however as will be the point for many of your questions below...He is being voted on with many players during the steroid era. This will garner him votes that would have gone to players with larger numbers/success/records.

2. Is Jeff Bagwell a HOFer? I don't mean anytime soon necessarily. It can be 14th ballot for all I care. I just wanna know your opinions. Again support your answer.

Compared to players of similar ability my initial reaction I would say no. WAs Bagwell a better player than say Alan Trammell? Tram is still out many years later. I think his best bet would be a veteran's vote many years into the future.

3. The only player with 3000 hits who has been on a HOF ballot and not currently made it in is Rafael Palmiero. Is he a HOFer? Do the steroid allegations end his chances? Did he even intentioanlly use? He to this day claims he never intentionally took them. Support answer!

Whether he did or did not intentionally use is a moot point. The voters already have the idea in their heads that he did. IF and when the steroid guys start getting voted in he is probably behind McGwire, Clemens, Sosa etc... At that point who else is against him that will attract votes at that time? Raf's chances are very low to get in anytime soon.

4. Does Bert Blyleven deserve to be in the HOF? It took a long time and the numbers nearly said no then suddenly rebounded after many years to let him in. Support answer!!

Here is a player who definitely benefitted from being up against steroid era players. Votes swayed to him as voters were reluctant to cast votes to others. My initial reaction when you say Bert Blyleven HOF is that of Bagwell. Others that were better than him as a ball player are not in. Once again years from now I think due to the longevity of his career and the numbers that therefore were created should have gotten him a veterans election.

5. Lastly, but certainly not least. Does my boy Frank Thomas deserve to be a HOFer? If he makes it will he be a first ballot HOFer? Support answer!!

Yes. In an era full of suspicion has his name ever really came up in scandal? This works in his favour once again when other players will lose votes based upon steroids or heavy steroid suspicion.

Let the contest begin. I will close this when I feel ready. Remember to keep all answers in good taste even when referring to steroids etc.

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10-04-2012, 02:18 PM
Post: #6
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
(10-04-2012 02:12 PM)dbroockerd Wrote:  ----
So Thomas for you makes it second year on the ballot. I think your take on the steroid users is interesting. The possibility that one day they make it after they pass. I honestly never gave that a thought. I chose not to bring up Rose. Its long been discussed and it never ends well. Thanks for the opinion. You are entered in the contest.



I didn't think Frank was eligible until 2014. I do believe he's a 1st ballot as well no matter when it is Smile
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10-04-2012, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 02:34 PM by zeprock.)
Post: #7
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
Biggio: He's a Hall of Famer in my opinion. 1st ballot? I don't think so. 7-time All-Star. Led his league in steals once, never in any batting categories. He does have 4 Gold Gloves and 5 Silver Slugger Awards. 3000 hits should be a lock on the Hall but not necessarily 1st ballot.

Bagwell: He's a Hall of Famer in my opinion too. Sort of like Jim Rice though. It may take him several years to get in. He only went to 4 All-Star games (hard to believe that's all). He picked up one Gold Glove and only two Silver Slugger Awards but he did add a Rookie of the Year and an MVP to his resume. I think he eventually gets in.

Palmeiro: He's a Hall of Famer in my opinion as well but I don't think he gets in due to his steroid controversy. 569 homers, over 3000 hits, three Gold Gloves. He piled up the numbers and I'm fairly sure he wasn't on the juice all his career. I expect he'll be punished and never get in.

Blyleven: I've long thought Blyleven was a Hall of Famer and was happy to see him finally get in. A couple of World Championships and a no-hitter on his resume along with leading his league in strikeouts once. Not his fault he was laboring on poor teams most of his career. Number 3 on the all-time strikeout list with 3701 when he retired. Almost 287 wins with an ERA around 3.30. Imagine if he'd played for good teams.

Thomas: Absolutely a Hall of Famer in my opinion. I also believe he will go in on the first ballot. He hit for power and average, loomed large in the batter's box and for most of a decade, along with Griffey Jr., was the last guy you wanted to face as a pitcher.

Thanks for the contest.

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10-04-2012, 02:54 PM
Post: #8
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
Biggio-Yes he was good for a long time, and at 2 positions, started as a catcher. 3k hits and solid defensively.
Bagwell-I think so, but not first ballot, breaking his hand frequently impacted his overall numbers. But he was one of the best first baseman in the NL for quite a while, and hit for average and power. I still can't stomach the fact that the Red Sox traded him for Larry Andersen.
Palmiero- I think will get in, but not for a while. I know for me him pointing his finger and proclaiming his innocence then getting nailed for PED use didn't help him in the court of public opinion. He was also despised by his teammates, and I'm guessing the writers didn't love him much either and it's their vote that puts him the hall.
Blyleven- I don't think he does deserve it, like someone else already said he pitched forever. I think a lot of pitchers could have put up those kinds of numbers if they pitched for that long. He was 287-250,so based on that he was never really dominant at any point in his career and he gave up a ton of homers. Although he was getting pulled from a game once and the crowd started serenading him with "Bye bye Bertie" (I think there is a song called bye bye birdie) and he flipped off the entire stadium, which earns him points with me haha.
Thomas- He'll get in, his MVP's and like Bagwell hitting for average and power. However, I think much like Jim Rice he tailed off pretty badly towards the end of his career. I think that late career struggle will keep him off the first ballot.
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10-04-2012, 02:54 PM
Post: #9
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
1) No but eventually makes it. I feel like writers are real strict about giving out First Ballot status and Biggio is not elite enough

2) YES. Stud offensively.

3) I think he was borderline to begin with and the steroids absolutely buried him. Put up some great numbers though (1 of 4 players with 3,000 hits AND 500 HRs). But many say (and I agree) that he was never the dominant or one of the dominant players at his position.

4) Didn't deserve it. He is a COMPILER.

5) LOCK - deserves 1st ballot but have a bad feeling he might have to wait an extra year.

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10-04-2012, 02:58 PM
Post: #10
RE: HOF debate: wanna hear opinions....contest as well
1. is craig biggio a hall of famer. i would say yes. not a first ballot, but maybe a few years yes. 3,000 hits players always make the hall. not to mention, he was a 4 time gold glove second baseman. he'll be in the hall, but maybe after the first 2 years.
2. is jeff bagwell a hall of famer. back in the early 90s it was the killer bees. bagwell, biggio, bell. its hard not to believe that bags wouldnt be in the hall. over 400 home runs. again, i dont see him as a first ballot, maybe a few years on the ballot. the 90s was such a "damaged" era with the steriod era, id see him in the hall before id see mcgwire, bonds, palmario.
3. is rafael palmario a hall of famer. 3,000 hits. 500 home runs. that is an amazing feat.that being said, he should be in the hall. yes the steroid era tarnished his career. plus he didnt help himself in front of the senate commitee. like all the others, bonds, clemens, mcgwire, eventually they will make the hall, but its gonna be a long, long, time. bags and biggio will be in the hall before these guys will.
4. does bert blyleving belong in the hall. 3,000 strikeouts. 16 pitchers have done it. and it may not happen again. so the answer is, yes. he belongs there. as does smoltz and maddux.
5.frank thomas. my all time favorite player. 5 time all star. 2 time mvp. comeback player of the year. .301 career batting average. over 500 home runs. 1600 walks. thats right, he was walked over 1600 times in his career. he was the most feared hitter in baseball in the 90s. he wasnt the best fielder, but he could hit. the white sox also had robin ventura at the time. a pretty nice 1 2 punch in anyones line up. theres no doubt that frank is a first time hall of famer. and i think, he might be on the ballot next year.
well theres my opinion. thanks for the post.
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