[Vols-1]

(03-21-2012 01:56 PM)jacobystealshome Wrote:  crazy talk

bonds could have retired before taking steroids and been a no doubt mortal lock 1st ballot guy

the evidence shows he started to take steroids before the 1999 season

his numbers?

411 hrs
1200+ rbi's
400 stolen bases (400/400 guy...how many guys on that list? oh yea - none but him)
290 ba
411 obp
ops+ 164 (for measure: that would still be good for 11th of all-time)
3 mvp's, 2nd place another time (in a bogus loss to terry pendelton), top 5 in mvp voting 7 times
7 gold gloves
leader in WAR 7 times
top 5 in ops+ 9 times

http://www.baseball-reference.com/player...g_standard

Bonds, before steroids, was the best baseball player in the world, with no one that could argue that at the time besides maybe - maybe ken griffey

(sidenote: the 300/300 club, of which there are 6 members? 5 of them played at one time for the giants, dawson being the lone exception. bonds, his father and godfather are all on that list)

Looks pretty close to what Jeff Bagwell finished with in 14 full seasons and he's not a lock for the HOF.

449 HR
1529 RBI
202 SB
.297 AVG
.408 OBP

1991 Rookie of the Year
1994 MVP

[jacobystealshome]

(03-21-2012 02:59 PM)Vols-1 Wrote:  Looks pretty close to what Jeff Bagwell finished with in 14 full seasons and he's not a lock for the HOF.

449 HR
1529 RBI
202 SB
.297 AVG
.408 OBP

1991 Rookie of the Year
1994 MVP

im sorry, tell me how 3 mvp's in 11 years compares to 1 mvp in 14? bags only had 3 tops 3 finishes.

and yes, bagwell compiled numbers are similar (stolen bases isnt in the same ballpark though. bonds had twice as many)

and he wasnt a great glove either, and you can pick any way of measuring that - gold gloves, sabermetrics, old school

also: was bagwell ever considered to be the most dominant player in the league for any stretch? no. hell, bagwell wasnt even the best first baseman of the era. bonds - before steroids, was a very good outfielder

im sorry, but if we are talking all-around game? bonds is a first ballot guy. hell, i can sum it up this easy:

bonds is the sole member of the 400/400 club, and no one else is close. and he did that before steroids. he did 400/400 in 11 years


bagwell: most similar hitters:
Carlos Delgado (879)
Frank Thomas (874)
Fred McGriff (865)
Vladimir Guerrero (860)


and bags has had how many years of eligibility? 2? he's getting in...the steroid rumors are what have kept him out

[Vols-1]

(03-21-2012 03:11 PM)jacobystealshome Wrote:  im sorry, tell me how 3 mvp's in 11 years compares to 1 mvp in 14? bags only had 3 tops 3 finishes.

and yes, bagwell compiled numbers are similar (stolen bases isnt in the same ballpark though. bonds had twice as many)

and he wasnt a great glove either, and you can pick any way of measuring that - gold gloves, sabermetrics, old school

Because the MVP is a popularity vote that usually goes the best player on a playoff team. Other multiple MVP winners like Dale Murphy who won two straight MVP's and five straight Gold Gloves will probably never be in the HOF either. All I'm telling you is the HOF usually votes for lifetime numbers(ie 500 homeruns,3000 hits) over award winners(ie Roger Maris).

[chrisa19978]

(03-21-2012 04:23 PM)Vols-1 Wrote:  Because the MVP is a popularity vote that usually goes the best player on a playoff team. Other multiple MVP winners like Dale Murphy who won two straight MVP's and five straight Gold Gloves will probably never be in the HOF either. All I'm telling you is the HOF usually votes for lifetime numbers(ie 500 homeruns,3000 hits) over award winners(ie Roger Maris).

But his case is your judge Bonds first 11 years to Bagwell's 14 year career. Bagwell has been flag with PED's as well. So for that reason he will not get in when he could of. Now compare career numbers and Bonds smashes him. I find it hard to believe you wanna compare hald of a career to a full career to 2 people that used PED's. The point is if Bonds never used PED's he probably would of ended in the 600 HR club and would be a 1st ballot HOFer. But he did use and is the HR King with question of would he of been without useing. He makes it in and Bagwell will but probably not for awhile seeing how many bigger names are up that were never caught or even the ones that were caught but had better numbers such as Bonds the Homerun King fom MLB till maybe Arod takes it but if not him Pujols takes it in the next 10 years and to me that is who will be the holder of it for some time.

[-MEAT-]

no, if you juice means inferior genes no matter how much "natural talent". Those who took steroids wanted to enhance many factors in their baseball careers. Its a slap in the face to the past and present who did it right, and let these cheaters who are weak mentally and physically knowingly ingest a chemical for big numbers and salalries.

[newfiecomicguy1]

NO, lets concentrate on the guys that played fair like Griffey Jr.

[katieneack]

I agree with what a lot of people are saying about Bonds. He was a HOF player hands down without the PED's so he should get in. Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire will never get in because they would not have been HOF caliber without the PED'S (especially Sosa). Bagwell may get in down the line, but not for a while. If AROD recovers and puts together a few more good seasons he will probably get in. But if he continues to decline it is going to look like it is due to no longer taking the PED's which I think will really hurt him.

Clemens may get in, and I think everyone else in a no. Chase Utley, because he put up those numbers as a 2nd baseman has a chance if he can get healthly and put together 5-6 more great seasons (but I don't see that happening).

Here's another question I was wondering everyone's opinion on. Do you think that all of this PED nonsense will actually help players who are considered clean but were borderline HOF players in their careers?

[Haze28]

For years I have held a grudge against all of these players for using roods to have an edge over the rest of the league but after cooling down and thinking about it, this is what came to mind...

Where would baseball be right now if the home run races between Sosa and McGwire never happened? The MLB was in serious trouble after the strike and many fans stopped caring about the game. I personally never had more fun watching the game than I did during the last 40-50 games of the 1998 season and many people will probably disagree with me but I would not be surprised if steroid use was encouraged by owners/mlb execs.

I think most of those guys should eventually make the hall but they should make a separate wing for the steroid era players. The ones that blatantly lied under oath should be made to wait longer though.

[filamuraireborn]

When they are inducted (all or some) in the HOF and the card companies start making a set for them, I think it is nice to have a Steroids Insert Set or Parallel-Insert Set for them.

[chrisa19978]

(03-22-2012 12:59 AM)Haze28 Wrote:  For years I have held a grudge against all of these players for using roods to have an edge over the rest of the league but after cooling down and thinking about it, this is what came to mind...

Where would baseball be right now if the home run races between Sosa and McGwire never happened? The MLB was in serious trouble after the strike and many fans stopped caring about the game. I personally never had more fun watching the game than I did during the last 40-50 games of the 1998 season and many people will probably disagree with me but I would not be surprised if steroid use was encouraged by owners/mlb execs.

I think most of those guys should eventually make the hall but they should make a separate wing for the steroid era players. The ones that blatantly lied under oath should be made to wait longer though.

This was my point awhile ago on this post as baseball was a dieing sport after the strike and these players your complaining about brought people back to watch the game. This has to mean something.