[_ZENAS_]

Basically the only "interesting" stats you are pointing out are players who hit for power but also steal bases. Stealing bases really doesn't boost your hall cred if the rest of your numbers are not hallworthy. So I agree he is a unique type player like Arod, Bonds, and Dawson who hit HRs and get Steals, but if you drop stolen bases from your criteria there are hundreds of players with those numbers. The elite company he is in is artificially arbitrary and really doesn't make a better case for the hall. He would still need both his power and average numbers to jump dramatically. 400 HRs and a .276 average won't cut it for him. As was stated before, he will need 500 HRs with the rest of his credentials.

[bazooka joe]

(05-10-2011 10:58 AM)_ZENAS_ Wrote:  Basically the only "interesting" stats you are pointing out are players who hit for power but also steal bases. Stealing bases really doesn't boost your hall cred if the rest of your numbers are not hallworthy. So I agree he is a unique type player like Arod, Bonds, and Dawson who hit HRs and get Steals, but if you drop stolen bases from your criteria there are hundreds of players with those numbers. The elite company he is in is artificially arbitrary and really doesn't make a better case for the hall. He would still need both his power and average numbers to jump dramatically. 400 HRs and a .276 average won't cut it for him. As was stated before, he will need 500 HRs with the rest of his credentials.

I dont believe I ever said the stats were interesting, the groups of players he is similar to are. Also, I would say steals do boost your hall cred. Not sure why they wouldnt.

[_ZENAS_]

(05-10-2011 05:10 AM)bazooka joe Wrote:  Soriano has some really interesting stats, and it would seem odd if he didnt make the hall.

Hmmm, it sure looks to me like you said his stats were interesting.

And I didn't say steals don't boost your hall cred at all. I said steals alone won't get you in if the rest of your numbers aren't hallworthy. He is not even close to a hall of fame player based on all of his stats. The only way you can even compare him to other hall players was to pick and choose arbitrarily a group of stats that eventually limit the group to him and a few HOFers. Start changing your statistical analysis by adding any other statistical category and you get a whole different group of players to compare him to. Anyone can be made to compare to a HOF player if you pick out certain stats.

For example (extreme I know, but it hopefully makes the point):

Babe Ruth and Rick Ankiel are the only two players with at least 10 HRs in 3 consecutive seasons who also have a WHIP under 1.36.

Does that make Rick Ankiel a HOFer? Of course not. Using a grouping of stat categories to narrow down players until you have a group of HOF players and Soriano doesn't prove he is hallworthy in any way shape or form.

I will certainly concede that Soriano is one of those unique type players who can hit for power and has speed on the basepaths. But I think it is a bit much to conclude that because his TYPE of player is very limited, that we should ignore the rest of his career stats and put him in the same conversation of Arod or Bonds when they blow him away in all other statistical categories.

[bazooka joe]

I understand the point you are trying to make, and understand that Soriano's other stats are pretty cruddy. I do think, like you said, that is an extreme example though, lol. HRs, RBIs, and SBs are some of the more important stats for a batter when trying to gauge his HoF credentials. Obviously AVG and OBP are just as important, and Sorianos arent anywhere near HoF material.

I already conceded that Soriano wont be making the Hall unless he has a dynamite next 4 years, I was just pointing out that maybe he isnt quite as far away as some people think.

[_ZENAS_]

As a yankees fan all I care about is just that one home run

[john1580]

(05-10-2011 03:59 AM)86champs Wrote:  When I saw the name in the thread title and opened it up to see "hall of fame" my first reaction was that there's just no way...

+ 1.....not a shot in hell

[yankeeempire]

There is one entry in this thread that i 100% totally agree with and that's Maris not being in the HOF. soriano will get in the HOF only when he purchases a ticket to get in on the daily tours. Yes there are people that are in the Hall that should not be and there are people who are not in the Hall that should be. I had a lengthy discussion with a high ranking employee that works at the HOF in Cooperstown and he said with a straight face that there are alot of players that hang in the hall that should not be there. The first one i can think of is Phil Rizzuto. I love the scooter but Rizzuto? Really? In reality 40 this and 40 that CANNOT get you in the hall. If winning back to back MVP awards, 7 all star selections, 3x world series champion and a gold glove cant get you in i don't know what will.

[stevecurren]

No chance - he is all offense and his overall numbers are not that impressive compared to HOF outfielders. Avg/OBP are extremely weak for HOF unless he is a "pure power hitter" or played his career primarily at 2B or SS. He might have had an outside shot if he stayed in the infield - would be comparable or better for than most already in. I'm not saying he didn't fill the stat sheets through 2001-2007, but his production is generally dropping and I don't think he will compile enough of the "big stats" to make up for his weakness in the other categories. He is a really good player who had some great years with some great teams...

Compare his stats to "my guy" as an example - Larkin. His stats: .295 AVG/.371 OBP/.444 SLG, 198 HRs, 960 RBIs, 379 SB, 1329 Runs. Are those numbers all that impressive - for an OF not really. For a SS - WOW...compared to all shortstops in the HOF, his #s are in the top ten of EVERY category. Throw in a 3 Gold Gloves, an MVP, 12 All-Stars, oh and 9 Silver Sluggers (best hitting player at his position in the NL) and now we are talking. Most people consider Cal Ripken the "power hitting SS" of the 80s/90s before the new wave of players. Although Ripken has double the HRs as Larkin (431 vs 198), their Slg % is nearly identical (.447 vs .444) - Larkin was just a better hitter with less power. Larkin isn't in the hall yet, but should make it next year...I hope...

[chrisa19978]

I will be honest for Mattingly his injuries late in his career killed him, he was on pace to make the Hall of Fame early on. How can someone like Pat Gillick make the Hall of Fame? Did he even play in the Majors or was it for being a coach? I believe their should be 2 differnt Hall Of Fames one for the players and one for the managers. I would even question them chooseing Bert Blyleven for this years as he had a decent career but 287-250 as your record after 22 years and not getting to the 4,000 stike out mark seems funny. Sometimes I believe they weight on stats way to much if someone plays for 25 years of course there going to have more strikeouts and or homeruns or anything else in that nature. Soriano is around 35 I would guess he could last 5 more years and hit 174 more home runs he will make it just for that alone, maybe not first time up but sometime he will.

---

Can you explain to me how this guy got into the Hall Of Fame looking at these stats he has a chance to me. Ray Schalk Games 1762 At Bats 5306 Runs 579 Hits 1345 Home Runs 11 RBI’s 594 Stolen Bases 177 Batting Average .253 On Base Percentage .340 Slugging .316

[bustin 5 knots]

I just found a 1999 RC of him, maybe worth something when/if he becomes HOF