[njdevilsfireonice30]

The second fattest in the league IMO is Nabokov. I also like Giguere a lot... and as one previous poster said, Giggy has "been there, done that"... Nabokov, Kipper, Lundqvist, Turco and Luongo are good, but none has reached the summit the way Giguere has.

[jaromirjagr68rw90]

ragmets Wrote:Last year nabokov would have been called one of the worst around (everyone was saying SJ got rid of the wrong goalie), one year later he is best (or second best???).

I think taking the opinion of the minority isn't an accurate portrayal of the majority...

ragmets Wrote:Nabokov could very well of had a fluke year last year

What, what, what?

ragmets Wrote:That being said, Kipprusoff and Lundqvist are the top two goalies.

I like Kipper, but he wasn't that good this year...

ragmets Wrote:Not to mention the interpersonal attitude too many players lack (im looking at you marty).

Please clarify what this means besides another baseless jab at Marty from a deluded Rangers fan...

ragmets Wrote:Kippy needs to be moved to a team that would make more use out of his play. He is stuck in Calgary. period. They either need to play a defensive game that would feed off kippy (ala NYR or boston style), or an all out offensive attack that is suited for Western conference style play. But seeing as how Calgary does not have the skill-set for a huge offensive minded game (aside from iginla).

Why? How does either one "make more use out of his play" ? They can't have a balanced attack and still "make more use out of his play"? They have to be all offense or all defense? Why?

ragmets Wrote:Brodeur = overrated

How delightfully open-minded!

ragmets Wrote:Nabokov = too early to tell (if he has another year like he did, then i will move him up).

Hi, I'd like you to meet Evgeni Nabokov, he's been playing at an incredibly high level since winning rookie of the year in 2000-01, in which time he's only had one questionable season out of 7 full seasons...I don't know what more you want? Perhaps a written letter from "John" himself stating that he's an elite goalie...geez, 6 awesome years and he still needs one more year to prove he's not a fluke? Then that means Lundqvist is a half-decade away from proving he isn't one either...

ragmets Wrote:Dipietro = has the attitude that makes me love him, but he is stuck behind an atrocious team for a long long long time, and he still hasnt shown he is worth his contract. I tihnk he could be, but the teams play will dictate how his career goes more than his play.

On the statsheet he hasn't shown it...but on the ice he has shown he's worth $4.5 million...no doubt about it...it's hard to tell from the stats page though...but DiPietro is one of the best in the league, but unfortunately no one knows it...

[jaromirjagr68rw90]

fungchen3 Wrote:

jaromirjagr68rw90 Wrote:Perhaps you are slighting the most technically sound goalie who happens to have both a Stanley Cup Championship and Conn Smythe trophy on his resume? And I am certainly not taking anything away from Luongo or Nabby, as they are both world class tenders who deserve to be mentioned behind Marty.

Does technically sound mean biggest pads? If so, yeah, you nailed it...his glory days were played behind a defense-first or in the case of 2003, defense-only team...with the most embarrassing equipment I've ever seen on an athlete...and was routinely outplayed by his "backups" Ilya Bryzgalov and Martin Gerber...

When you get equipment that matches your body and at least flinch when Patrik Elias roofs one on you in game 3 of the Stanley Cup Finals instead of closing your eyes and hoping it hits you, let me know...then we'll talk...

J.S. Giguere is the most overrated player this decade.

Wow, if you feel Conn Smythe trophies and Stanley Cups are overrated. You are certainly entitled to your opinion though.

Now, don't try to spin it...in your short time here, I've come to really like what you bring to a hockey discussion, you know very well that I'm not saying a Smythe and a Cup are overrated (the Smythe belonged to Brodeur, 7 shutouts in 16 wins, boy howdy that's unreal!)

So, the trophies are nice and all, but if you really want to get into a Giguere debate, I'm game, it's one of my favorites actually...

[fungchen3]

jaromirjagr68rw90 Wrote:Now, don't try to spin it...in your short time here, I've come to really like what you bring to a hockey discussion, you know very well that I'm not saying a Smythe and a Cup are overrated (the Smythe belonged to Brodeur, 7 shutouts in 16 wins, boy howdy that's unreal!)

So, the trophies are nice and all, but if you really want to get into a Giguere debate, I'm game, it's one of my favorites actually...

For starters, thanks for the compliment. As far as the spinning goes, I was referring to the fact that you labelled Giggy the most overrated player this decade. I don't know exactly how it is possible to consider a playoff MVP (from the losing team no less) and a Stanley Cup champion THE most overrated player of a decade. That was my point. I don't think you backstop a team to a Cup and win a Smythe by accident.

In regards to the equipment issue, I have always felt that the goalies today have the luxary of extremely large equipment, a luxary their brethren of the 70s and 80s didn't have. But, that is another discussion, for the sake of not souring this thread. At this point, I feel all goalies benefit from the larger pads, Giguere included. But he is not the only one.

In terms of this particular thread, when all of the goalies were being tossed around, I prefaced my decision by saying there are many different ways to slice this debate. MY take came down to this, "If I had to take one goalie for a Game 7 tomorrow, who would it be" and my choice is Giguere. That does not mean that Giguere will be a better option two or three years down the line when Lundqvist is hitting his prime or Miller, especially if he lands in Detroit as a free agent.

I made my choice based on this criteria:

a.) Conn Smythe
b.) RECENT Stanley Cup
c.) Excellent technique (according to Luongo, Giguere is the BEST in the world)
d.) Back-to-back 35 wins and 36 wins in LESS than 60 games played each season
e.) Back-to-back GAA of a little over 2 (2.26 and 2.12)

Giguere has proven, like many other goalies, that once he hits his zone, he is as close to unbeatable as you can find in the league. Technically, Giggy also doesn't have many weaknesses IMO. He also has the credentials to prove that he has the mental makeup and experience of winning a championship, and dealing with the pressures of winning the ultimate war of attrition.

I think Giguere, Luongo, Nabokov, and a few others are on par. And, with Marty out of the mix (which this thread is based on) I take the goalie who has the ring.

Again, if we are talking about picking a goalie to start a franchise from scratch, or even with a 10-year plan, Giguere is most-likely not my guy.

That's my case for Jean-Sebastien Giguere. While my view can certainly be disagreed upon or debated, I feel it certainly has merit based on Giggy's recent history.

[big pressure]

Lundqvist.

[cdantonio]

I just heard that Luongo brokered peace in the Middle East.

He can do no wrong.......:doubt:

[jaromirjagr68rw90]

fungchen3 Wrote:

jaromirjagr68rw90 Wrote:Now, don't try to spin it...in your short time here, I've come to really like what you bring to a hockey discussion, you know very well that I'm not saying a Smythe and a Cup are overrated (the Smythe belonged to Brodeur, 7 shutouts in 16 wins, boy howdy that's unreal!)

So, the trophies are nice and all, but if you really want to get into a Giguere debate, I'm game, it's one of my favorites actually...

For starters, thanks for the compliment. As far as the spinning goes, I was referring to the fact that you labelled Giggy the most overrated player this decade. I don't know exactly how it is possible to consider a playoff MVP (from the losing team no less) and a Stanley Cup champion THE most overrated player of a decade. That was my point. I don't think you backstop a team to a Cup and win a Smythe by accident.

In regards to the equipment issue, I have always felt that the goalies today have the luxary of extremely large equipment, a luxary their brethren of the 70s and 80s didn't have. But, that is another discussion, for the sake of not souring this thread. At this point, I feel all goalies benefit from the larger pads, Giguere included. But he is not the only one.

In terms of this particular thread, when all of the goalies were being tossed around, I prefaced my decision by saying there are many different ways to slice this debate. MY take came down to this, "If I had to take one goalie for a Game 7 tomorrow, who would it be" and my choice is Giguere. That does not mean that Giguere will be a better option two or three years down the line when Lundqvist is hitting his prime or Miller, especially if he lands in Detroit as a free agent.

I made my choice based on this criteria:

a.) Conn Smythe
b.) RECENT Stanley Cup
c.) Excellent technique (according to Luongo, Giguere is the BEST in the world)
d.) Back-to-back 35 wins and 36 wins in LESS than 60 games played each season
e.) Back-to-back GAA of a little over 2 (2.26 and 2.12)

Giguere has proven, like many other goalies, that once he hits his zone, he is as close to unbeatable as you can find in the league. Technically, Giggy also doesn't have many weaknesses IMO. He also has the credentials to prove that he has the mental makeup and experience of winning a championship, and dealing with the pressures of winning the ultimate war of attrition.

I think Giguere, Luongo, Nabokov, and a few others are on par. And, with Marty out of the mix (which this thread is based on) I take the goalie who has the ring.

Again, if we are talking about picking a goalie to start a franchise from scratch, or even with a 10-year plan, Giguere is most-likely not my guy.

That's my case for Jean-Sebastien Giguere. While my view can certainly be disagreed upon or debated, I feel it certainly has merit based on Giggy's recent history.

Hey, that's completely fair...I have major problems with Giguere and there are some inconsistencies in the "tale of Giguere" that just get ignored...

Without too much elaboration, and in a briefer version than usual, why I think Giguere is overrated...

-Outplay your supposed backups on a consistent basis...we all know who Bryzgalov and Gerber are because they are sheltered by the same team that Giguere is sheltered/catered to...Giguere gets a shutout streak in the playoffs, Bryzgalov beats it...Giguere gets a real low 2.xx GAA in 03, Gerber goes sub-two (1.90? something like that)...I mean, I'm a Gerber-backer, but look where he's at, he's not brought up in this thread...I think Gerber is good, but Anaheim made him something he wasn't, just like Giguere...do people consider him a goalie that can post a 1.90 GAA in the NHL anymore? No...that system makes a star out of everyone...

-Lower the size of your equipment, instead of keeping that mattress under your chest, keep a chest protector, instead of wearing pads that are designed for someone that's 6'4", 6'5", wear some for your size, because right now you could do a split and still not have a fivehole...remove that giant "block" that supposed to protect your wrist but instead protects your entire arm on your glove hand (I don't remember what his blocker looks like, so I won't comment)...a few extra inches that his pads can be apart while still not giving up a fivehole, a giant chest protector (well, I consider it a net protector at this point) and the oversized blocks on your gloves give you a few more inches that add up fast and when you sliding across the crease as low as you do, well, I'll put it this way: you better not give up anything...

Multiply by 2 for the 2003 playoffs, oh good God, that was pathetic, that was before I had anything against Giguere, and as a hockey fan that hated the Ducks/Devils, it was embarrassing to see a goalie SMALLER, not many people know this, but Giguere is smaller in height and weight as compared to Brodeur, but yet, somehow wore equipment that was twice the size...that's an embarrassment...he had pads that would make Garth Snow blush...

[[[[See Exhibits below]]]]

- Probably my biggest pet peeves about him are the "advantages" he gets and the credit he gets for not doing anything that another goalie couldn't do...

-2003, Giguere and the Ducks, led by probably a tighter trap than the Devils ever had...Giguere had a freakin kiddy pool under his jersey, I mean Jesus, he was enormous...he gets 5 shutouts in those playoffs, 3 of them against the 2nd most defensive team in the conference, Minnesota...totally blew it in the finals, what did he give up, like 20 goals in the Finals? ...meanwhile Marty gets 7 SO and has comparable numbers, probably better numbers if the Ducks weren't playing until 3:30 in the morning every night of the playoffs...that was Brodeur's Conn Smythe...

-Notice the year after the lockout he puts up his worst numbers as a Duck, conveniently on the other side of the pad reductions (although miniscule)...luckily now he's got the two of the three best defensemen this decade in front of him, that remedied that problem real quick...

-The coaching staff's double standard for the backups...
A couple years ago's playoffs for example...Bryzgalov starts the playoffs, and beats the hottest goalie in the league, quite handily in fact...but the old "Giguere" rule gets put into place when Bryzgalov gives up 4 on 36 in 51 minutes, as if you really need to be pulled then, and guess who's in the next game? Giguere...alright that's fine, I understand, but now fast forward to the Detroit series, Giguere gives up 3 on 13 in about 25 or 28 minutes (the exact time escapes me) and gets yanked (actually worth being pulled for) and so Bryzgalov should definitely be in the next game right? Nope...right back to Giguere, with 3.99 million reasons to back it up (now 6 million of them for this year)...at least be less obvious about it...

-Game 6 vs. Detroit in 2007...Giguere faces 13 shots in the first two periods, nothing being thrown his way...3rd period comes around, Wings are down 3, the Ducks don't want to go back to Detroit for game 7, so the Ducks should think, "geez, our season's on the line here in this 3rd period" and what does Giguere do, gives up 3 goals in 14 minutes, plus a post, and 2 empty net goals that were pushed wide...but despite Giguere's best efforts the Ducks still win...
Who's the first star? Zetty? Datsyuk? Pahlsson? Nope...Giguere...pressure's on, you blow it, this wasn't a shot parade on Giguere necessarily, I think by the time he gave up the third goal he had only faced 12 shots...but somehow he's the first star despite cracking when the pressure's on...that's a joke...

I mean not too mention that he was a top-15 pick and couldn't cut it in 3 organizations over a 6 or 7 year period...almost always upstaged in his minor league stints...he finally gets smart and beefs up on the ol' equipment and the rest is history...

I think Giguere is terrible up high, blocker, glove, are nearly non-existant, he can't play the puck...he's very sound positionally, yes, absolutely, but he's not that talented of a goalie in my opinion, I don't like his reflexes, I don't like his athleticism...and you always look at goals like this, and you wonder...hmmm, is he depending too much on his equipment to make saves...

Giguere's not the worst goalie in the league, but some analysts, I really don't know how they even watch the game, they are on their knees in front of Giguere so much it must be near impossible...

Some of my evidence:

Proof that Giguere over-depends on his pads in 2003... Watch this, with the sound on

Giguere without pads:


Giguere without pads...err...or a shirt...


Pretty small guy, eh? Doesn't look like someone that needs this, just for "protection"...



Mind the chest protector as well as the pads...the chest protector is the biggest, most egregious offense of all...a family of 4 could live comfortably in there...they could probably even rent out the guest room...



Look at that, that's embarrassing...don't you feel stupid that your shoulder pads almost go over your head...I've played some goalie in my life, that's never been an issue for me...never, not even close...they've never even touched my mask before, let alone make it look like my body is swallowing itself whole...

I mean, look, he can't even get out of there...he's like Paul Coffey, Coffey needed to be cut out of his skates after every game, Giguere needs the jaws of life to get him out of there...I wouldn't be surprised if there's a cage for small animals in there...that's why he's got the straw on the end of drink, he needs to pick the lock at intermissions to get some air...



Some goalies are good...and have legit pads...

Mathieu Garon:


OMG, he's doing the split and there's actually a five hole...and the pads protect his legs and not 5 inches above them [gasp]

Olaf Kolzig, is not only bigger than Giguere by a lot, but he needs to shrug and still does NOT get his chest protector to the level that Giguere's is when he's in normal stance...that's pathetic...because Kolzig is just about the biggest goalie in the league...


And there's more than just Giguere that wear big pads...
Manny Legace is roughly my height, I'd rather wear 32's as opposed to the 38's he wears...I've tried on 36's and I can't even skate in them really...you're an idiot Legace...and Bettman called him out on live TV about them too which was one of the greatest moments in live hockey TV history, right up there when someone called Tom Poti a ******* nerd...



The trend seems to be, get the biggest thigh risers you can so you don't have a five-hole, as evidenced here with Henrik Lundqvist...however, I've never seen it backfire so badly before as Lundqvist gives up, seemingly, some of the most five-hole goals in the game amongst top goalies...


While Giguere certainly isn't alone...he is probably the poster child for it, and deservedly so...he brought it upon himself...a lot of cars might be speeding, but they're gonna take the guy leading the pack (I would hope)...

I mean, even another goalie mentioned here quite often, Roberto Luongo, who has been a personal favorite of mine, as some equipment "issues" that even Marty Turco and Mike Smith have publically renounced...
Luongo seen here, next to Jose Theodore at a recent All-Star Game...granted, Luongo is about 3 inches taller...



Which why people should have that much more respect for Marty Brodeur...he's done it this whole time, with Scott Stevens and without...with Scott Niedermayer and without...with a trap and without...with Mike Mottau/Colin White/Sheldon Brookbank and those other losers in New Jersey now and without...all with some of the smallest equipment in the league...by far...

[wwjd10]

jernst2 Wrote:I gotta say Giguere espically with 3 solid playoff runs 2 of which went to the finals??

I have to second that one but lets not forget about Kipper! He has been off his game a bit this past year but his team didnt help him a ton either!

[tyme2ryme19]

awmitchell Wrote:miller has the best mask, though.

i think kipper does

[tyme2ryme19]

jaromirjagr68rw90 Wrote:

i belive the pic is Brent Johnson