I know this topic has probably been debated many times over and over, but I wanted to bring it up again due to recent threads I've been reading on different forums and recent records being broken.
BV - Book Value - Beckett's (or other companies') computation of different sales for particular players, teams, sets and other factors.
SV - Sell Value - Most recent approximate selling prices for players, cards, sets, etc.
Just before the All-Star break, I saw that ESPN had put a comparison up of Blake Griffin and Kevin Love on their facebook page asking who was more deserving of a spot on the All-Star team. I'm a Detroit Pistons fan so I love hard workers and that's why I prefer Kevin Love over Blake Griffin. I know others disagree and I'm more than OK with that. However, what I tend to disagree with is people saying that Kevin Love is not as great of a player as Blake Griffin is. I personally think Love is an all around better player than Griffin is. (I would love to see Tupark throw in stats like how he did in the Curry vs. Evans debate for ROY last year.) Well, with these debates, I started thinking about how the ability of a player contributes to their BV/SV. Now, I know market size (meaning ability to be in the public eye) has something to do with it, stats (primarily PPG it seems, but sometimes APG and RPG) has a little to do with it, how much the boxes sell for, the company, the economy, etc. All of these are contributing factors to both BV and SV.
However, this thread I want to concentrate on BV since that somewhat contributes to SV. Collecting Pistons, I could see a $20BV Richard Hamilton patch on eBay for $15. Why? He's not a superstar, doesn't have gaudy numbers and isn't in the camera much. Now, the BV was determined by all of the aforementioned factors. But when you consider Richard Hamilton to be one of the hardest workers in the NBA and very consistent it kind of seems unfair. But I'll use Kevin Love vs. Blake Griffin as a better example. Kevin Love's 2010-11 Playoff Contenders Patches base card is worth less than half of Blake Griffin's. Now, let's say both players were to stay with their current teams for their entire career, win no championships, same number of time in the playoffs and same number of rounds won, each make the same number of all-star games and each one is the best player on their team their entire careers. Let's also say that what their stats are right now (PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, FG%, etc.) stay exactly the same as they are right now for their entire careers. Oh, and let's say that neither of them brake another record (Kevin Love just having broke Moses Malone's streak of 51 double doubles in a row, CONGRADULATIONS!!!) Unfortunately, I think Griffin's BV/SV will still be higher than Love's, and maybe even by the same double margin. But I don't understand why? Love has better stats and is a more diverse player than Griffin (in my opinion). While Griffin is in LA, he's playing for the Clippers, not the Lakers. Is it really because of his dunks? I mean, Blake isn't just about Dunks, but that's what he's known best for. He had a nice run of 26 (I think) double doubles and he's a really good player, but what really justifies his BV being more than twice that of a very solid and diverse player? I know, Love did not have even close to the rookie season that Blake is having now. I completely understand that. But Love has grown to where he is now. Will those two years really make that much difference? And honestly, I think even if Kevin Love stayed with the Wolves his entire career and SOMEHOW got them to a championship, he'll still get less BV/SV than Griffin because of his hype.
What are your thoughts and opinions?
All hype unfortunately... more and more collectors tried jumping on the band wagon and it just drives the prices ridiculous. Blake is the flashier player, big dunker, espn top play nominee, and thats what people see. Kevin Love is a stud and all he does is put up numbers... he doesnt make the highlight reel for hitting over 40% on his 3Ptrs and hauling 20/15 every night. I dont think BV has anything to do with the topic because u cant apply any logic to how they sell. Look at how much above BV Griffins been selling... its really insane.
Im sure K Love will sell so much better than he has been bc of the streak, but never like Griffin unless Blakes valiue comes crashing due to injury etc...
It all comes down to one simple rule "people want the latest and greatest thing!" You can apply this to any type of product. When a new piece of technology comes out: iPhone, iPad, LCD/Plasma TV, people want it even if it is not necessarily A LOT better then then previous thing. We see this each and every year, when the latest and greatest rookie comes out and starts putting up decent numbers, people want anything and everything of him! Blake's prices have already begone to come back down to earth, and when next years class arrives, people will jump on the bandwagon of whoever the star is next year (I vote it will be Harrison Barnes, but thats another debate haha). Look at some previous STAR rookies, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Tim Duncan, they all had similar selling prices of Blake Griffin when they first came into the league but look at them now! In my opinion anyone who pays double and even triple for an unproven rc is insane! But that is hw it always has been and how it always will be!
BV is a guide only and too many buyers use it to determine what a good deal is on ebay. What we pay is suppose to determine what the BV is. I fear too many buyers determine what they pay based on BV.
I have recently paid full book value for a few cards, including a James Harden Exquisite RC auto #74. I figure it was a good time to jump on him after Green's departure from OKC.
Funny I bought the other Exquisite RC auto #45 of Harden's for the exact same price and it books higher. But reguardless I bought the cards within the HI-LOW columns of the Beckett Price guide, and I was comfortable paying what I did for those particular cards.
Now on the subject of sell value. The only time I hate the term sell value is when someone uses the highest sell value of their cards thay can find to make an offer of my cards for the lowest sell value they can find. I don't just buy and sell on ebay so the term sell value to me is what I believe I can get for the card at a show or if I list it well on ebay.
Another issue when refering to sell value is the definition: Is it how much I can sell it for, minus shipping and fees: or is it how much I can pay as a buyer for it shipped to my door???
I can buy cards cheaper on ebay when the seller is overseas and his auction ends at 2am, or even when a domestic seller lists at a bad time or has a bad listing. Should I trade you the cards you want based on that price, NO. I can list it myself better than that and the card would fetch more.
But when trading based on book value it can be a problem as well. Trading cards is an objective action that has no clear cut rules for me except that I like what I am giving up less than what I am getting.
I trade all the time giving up BV to get a card I like. and on the other end of the spectrum some traders are trading strictly by high BV which usually is OK for me, but sometimes I get great deals that way and almost feel as if I am cheating those traders with Becketts help.
Basically, people need to know the secondary market through research and only use the pricing beckett gives when they do not know for sure what the card can bring.
I can gripe about Beckett pricing on many different cards and specific sets, but it still boils down to them being the best and most availiable on finding the prices for my cards sell ranges than any other form of price guide.
THIS DEBATE WILL NEVER END.
Of those rookies you listed, I feel worse for Duncan than I do any of them. He was never flashy, has a couple rings, and is one of my favorite players of all time. His value should be more than Griffin's, by far. I guess that I wish there was a different way we could go about it. I mean, when it comes to trading, it all depends on who you're trading with. If someone wants my $20 Jordan GU and they're offering me a $20 Chucky Atkins GU......really? I mean, yeah, if Chucky is in a Pistons uniform, I want it, but I also know I could fetch something snazzier or worth more if the other trader knows that what they are getting is worth more than BV. I kind of wish there was a production value, meaning how much it cost for their license, for the picture they used, the card stock, the packaging, labor, etc. Then things might be even.
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I've learned thru the years never to argue about three things in life. Religion, Politics, and Sportcards logic on pricing...
I think it's just a matter of what each individual prefers to go for. A lot of people on this site care and prefer comparing BV. Others almost never mention BV. Me personally, I tend to work with SV just by trying to get the best average price for what a card sells for and ebay is obviously the best indication of that though not always correct or fully telling. i think your collecting motives also determine what value you want to work with. if you're more about collecting to keep for your sets and things of that nature, you tend to go for BV because you see proper value even in base cards. if you're more about collecting but also looking to make a profit or sell the cards you acquire in some way at some point, then obviously you'll lean towards SV a lot more. I'm not saying this is how it always works, but looking at it logically, I think generally that's how you can more easily separate between who uses BV as opposed to SV.
as for the whole griffin vs love debate, i will say that i disagree on some things said. you like love because he's a hard worker, which is like an indication that griffin is not as hard of a worker which is utterly untrue. griffin is a tireless worker. he may not get the same number of rebounds as love, but 12-13 rebounds per game doesn't happen on natural talent. that comes from effort and work. his willingness to go after it all the time already gets under the skin of many players that can't take it, so i'm not sure if i buy or understand the notion that u like love better because he's a hard worker.
the reason griffin is considered a better player than k love as of right now is because his ceiling is higher. kevin love has developed his way into more playing time and better production as this is his 3rd season. griffin is a rookie and pretty much makes more of an impact already than love, so the reason for saying griffin is better is obvious. love shoots 3s and rebounds better(best rebounder we've seen since a prime ben wallace). griffin leads all PF in assists. the other comparisons as of right now are marginal as they equally do a great job in scoring/rebounding and both are pretty bad in the defensive cateogories. the biggest difference between their games is griffin's handle and potential to further improve. he can handle the ball and make smart decisions with the basketball where the offense can consistently go to him and something good will happen from it. he's the only pf i know that has the versatility to go coast to coast and out run a guard in the process. kevin love can't do this. and again, the main thing is that this is griffin's first season in the league. he has set a much higher bar for himself than love has. if griffin doesn't improve and stay around this level in the next 2 seasons, then u can talk about how love is equally as good or possibly even better because of his range. i don't think love will get much better than what he's doing this season. i think griffin is capable of averaging 27ppg. his defense can also improve based on his athleticism alone. it's the one thing that irritates me about griffin at times. so much athleticism but not enough of it is used on the defensive end. love lacks athleticism and therefore, his defense can only get so much better from where he's at right now. he'll never be the guy that comes up with a key block or steal because that's simply not his style of play. it's the potential that separates griffin from love as of right now.
(03-10-2011 02:20 PM)tupark82 Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's just a matter of what each individual prefers to go for. A lot of people on this site care and prefer comparing BV. Others almost never mention BV. Me personally, I tend to work with SV just by trying to get the best average price for what a card sells for and ebay is obviously the best indication of that though not always correct or fully telling. i think your collecting motives also determine what value you want to work with. if you're more about collecting to keep for your sets and things of that nature, you tend to go for BV because you see proper value even in base cards. if you're more about collecting but also looking to make a profit or sell the cards you acquire in some way at some point, then obviously you'll lean towards SV a lot more. I'm not saying this is how it always works, but looking at it logically, I think generally that's how you can more easily separate between who uses BV as opposed to SV.
as for the whole griffin vs love debate, i will say that i disagree on some things said. you like love because he's a hard worker, which is like an indication that griffin is not as hard of a worker which is utterly untrue. griffin is a tireless worker. he may not get the same number of rebounds as love, but 12-13 rebounds per game doesn't happen on natural talent. that comes from effort and work. his willingness to go after it all the time already gets under the skin of many players that can't take it, so i'm not sure if i buy or understand the notion that u like love better because he's a hard worker.
the reason griffin is considered a better player than k love as of right now is because his ceiling is higher. kevin love has developed his way into more playing time and better production as this is his 3rd season. griffin is a rookie and pretty much makes more of an impact already than love, so the reason for saying griffin is better is obvious. love shoots 3s and rebounds better(best rebounder we've seen since a prime ben wallace). griffin leads all PF in assists. the other comparisons as of right now are marginal as they equally do a great job in scoring/rebounding and both are pretty bad in the defensive cateogories. the biggest difference between their games is griffin's handle and potential to further improve. he can handle the ball and make smart decisions with the basketball where the offense can consistently go to him and something good will happen from it. he's the only pf i know that has the versatility to go coast to coast and out run a guard in the process. kevin love can't do this. and again, the main thing is that this is griffin's first season in the league. he has set a much higher bar for himself than love has. if griffin doesn't improve and stay around this level in the next 2 seasons, then u can talk about how love is equally as good or possibly even better because of his range. i don't think love will get much better than what he's doing this season. i think griffin is capable of averaging 27ppg. his defense can also improve based on his athleticism alone. it's the one thing that irritates me about griffin at times. so much athleticism but not enough of it is used on the defensive end. love lacks athleticism and therefore, his defense can only get so much better from where he's at right now. he'll never be the guy that comes up with a key block or steal because that's simply not his style of play. it's the potential that separates griffin from love as of right now.
Well, I didn't say Griffin wasn't a hard worker, I just meant it seems that Love works a little harder and that's because of his lack of athleticism. Blake can jump over many people to get a rebound while Love can't. Kind of like Bill Laimbeer.
Griffin is Dennis Rodman with fewer rebounds.
I don't think Love's ceiling is much lower than Griffin's because like you said, it's only Love's third season, not 7th. If that were the case, I wouldn't have even brought this up. I just feel like Griffin gets way too much hype. Take the dunk contest for example. I don't know what car he brought out, but regardless, he jumped over the hood of the car. The hood. I mean, Nate jumped over Dwight. Blake.....the hood. And he won. I don't get it. The first thing I hear when watching Sportscenter and they are reviewing a Clippers game is almost always the same "How many dunks did Griffin have tonight?" With Love it's 1) How quick he will get his double double and 2) (in the past) if he was going to break the streak. I just feel that if Love were to have a double double around the same numbers 20+/15+ every game the rest of his career without any really high numbers, he'll still not get the same love as Griffin if he averaged 29PPG/9RPG for his career and dunked 5 times in every game. I don't know Dr. J's numbers so this could be a completely pointless statement, but I don't think his numbers were out of this world and he's mostly known for being one of the best, if not the best, dunkers of all time. His cards will go for more than Kareem Abdul-Jabar who is the all-time leading scorer, 19 time all-star, 6 time champion, 3 time college champion, etc. At least, that's what I think (can't get on eBay right now at work, so don't know).
As far as SV and BV, I do use BV when determining how much I want to pay for something, but I normally try to go half BV because I think some BV is way off. Especially with the flood of Jerseys, Manufactured patches, sticker autos, etc. I've seen cards where a sticker auto sold as much if not more for the same quality card with an on card auto. The player hasn't even seen the card to know their auto was going on it, yet it sells for more than one they personally signed. Kind of sad. I don't think any one way is wrong or right, just want to get opinions.
xtreme, there are other factors in your sticker auto theory that are missing. Check out the group scans in my bucket of my Durant autos. BV on the much more popular SP rc (on card) auto is $50 less BV than the signature class from ultra, that is a sticker auto.
The reason.......... the signature class was his first auto issued into packs and the numbering was lower #'d.
I pulled the signature class and probably would have rather pulled the SP rc myself because of the on card auto feature, but i have to agree with your theory overall because am seeing less collectors care about that difference in on card or sticker autos.
My question is this, what about sweet shots autos on the leather and what about hardcourt autos on the small pieces of wood, do you consider them on card or sticker.
Supprisingly the hardcourt auto on wood were done after the card was completed and I have a D-Wade auto in my bucket that proves that, but we all know about the those leather autos from sweet shot and how sometimes the cut of the card obscures part of the signature. I think card designs like these are why people are caring less about on card autos. Just my theory.
(03-10-2011 03:29 PM)got watcha want Wrote: [ -> ]xtreme, there are other factors in your sticker auto theory that are missing. Check out the group scans in my bucket of my Durant autos. BV on the much more popular SP rc (on card) auto is $50 less BV than the signature class from ultra, that is a sticker auto.
The reason.......... the signature class was his first auto issued into packs and the numbering was lower #'d.
I pulled the signature class and probably would have rather pulled the SP rc myself because of the on card auto feature, but i have to agree with your theory overall because am seeing less collectors care about that difference in on card or sticker autos.
My question is this, what about sweet shots autos on the leather and what about hardcourt autos on the small pieces of wood, do you consider them on card or sticker.
Supprisingly the hardcourt auto on wood were done after the card was completed and I have a D-Wade auto in my bucket that proves that, but we all know about the those leather autos from sweet shot and how sometimes the cut of the card obscures part of the signature. I think card designs like these are why people are caring less about on card autos. Just my theory.
For the Floor, Shoe, Leather, Ball, Jersey/Patch, etc...those are all a lot better to me than Sticker because for all I know, Durant (not picking on him) could be at home watching American Idol with his sticker pages in front of him while signing. All he knows is he has to finish them up by Friday and mail them to get paid. There was a picture someone posted of when Durant started signing for Panini, showed him in a room (not sure if it was his house) signing shoes, balls, etc. He was actually touching the merchandise, not a sticker on a page that was mailed to him.